Sport Planes (Formerly I/C & Gas Conversion) Discuss I/C or Gas Conversions, Aerobatic Planes and Sport Aircraft

Hangar 9 F22 Raptor Glow-To-Electric Conversion

Old 10-05-2015, 01:50 PM
  #1  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default Hangar 9 F22 Raptor Glow-To-Electric Conversion

Guys,

I really could not sell it so, I am making it air worthy to have fun with it!

It will be powered by the Himax HC3528-1000 brushless motor and swinging the APC 10 X 9 propeller on three (3) Cells Li-Poly. This will yield approximately:

~400 Watts / 40-Amps / 84oz. of Static Thrust / 9,700 RPMs / a pitch speed of 83-MPH.

Dry Empty Weight tips the scale at 5lbs.-4 1/8oz.

We shall see.....

Here she sits Airframe Only:



Some recent pictures during Weigh-In for Dry Airframe only:


guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:58 PM
  #2  
fhhuber
Super Contributor
 
fhhuber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

Remember they have a weak place in the forward fuselage and Hanger-9 had a note out about installing some extra wood support in the fuel tank area

(actually needed it to stretch from behind the canopy-hatch all the way to the firewall because their recommended reinforcement just moved where it broke)
fhhuber is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 02:14 PM
  #3  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
Remember they have a weak place in the forward fuselage and Hanger-9 had a note out about installing some extra wood support in the fuel tank area

(actually needed it to stretch from behind the canopy-hatch all the way to the firewall because their recommended reinforcement just moved where it broke)
Yes indeed! My Raptor does have the re-enforcement wood.

Thank you!

EDIT: Here is a video of someone that did a conversion on the Gray Covered Raptor!
https://youtu.be/xs0F5ny5v40
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 04:18 PM
  #4  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,789
Default

My questions are :

Tractor or Pusher ?

AUW once battery / Motor / Rx etc. fitted ?

You show a weight of ~84oz bare frame weight ... and a thrust of 84oz from motor combo.

I usually do not believe calculated or factory data .. and find my skepticism often verified. You are starting at 1:1 weight ratio BEFORE adding any weight ... so I assume you will have a poor ratio once all fitted.

Lets assume for arguments sake ... 84oz = 2381gr.. this lets me calculate additions easily !

For that means a serious LiPo ... probably around 300gr (10.6oz)
Rx ... 5gr + 5 servos 50gr ... (2oz)

Motor ? 100gr ? (3.5oz)

Wires / connectors / bits and bobs ... magnets etc. .... ~0.5oz

So now assuming model balances OK ... we have :

84 + 10.6 + 2 + 3.5 + .5 .... = 105.1oz

Now we have 0.79 : 1 weight to thrust ratio .... good but nothing to be excited about ... and this all assumes that CoG comes out OK and I never allowed for prop adaptor / prop etc..

I'm not trying to 'poop' over the conversion ... just putting a few ideas out and possible results ....

Personally I would be looking to lose weight ... the wheels for example ... and up the power ... lets be honest a Jet flying around is OK ... but one that has a good Power to Weight ratio and can pull the verticals etc. is a bit more exciting for pilot and spectator.

Nigel
solentlife is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 04:28 PM
  #5  
fhhuber
Super Contributor
 
fhhuber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

Full scale Piper Cubs do just fine with less than 0.3:1 power:weight.
But they generally aren't put through the HIGH G maneuvers we demand in RC flight.
(the wings would fold up performing what we think of as a lazy loop.)

It will fly with the setup he has listed. It just won't be able to perform like the one in the video he linked.
Not that hard to upgrade the motor if not happy with it.

The glow setup in the RTF version was appx 0.8:1 power:weight (11X7 @ 12k rpm typical for the .46 glow engine), making it unsatisfactory to people used to higher performance, but they flew fine, looping from level flight being possible.
fhhuber is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 04:41 PM
  #6  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,789
Default

No disrespect intended but we all know that full size are working on much lower ratios.

0.8:1 I fine for sunday sport flying .... but soon leads to wanting more oooomph !

You only have to follow the average EDF or Pusher thread .... to see the search for that extra ZIP ....

Nigel
solentlife is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:25 PM
  #7  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Hello guys!

Thanks for all the replies, wow! I am glad that I am finally doing a conversion that lots are interested for a change. I have done a large Mid-West Citabria a few years ago and it flew originally with a large ASTRO Flight 60 Direct Drive "Brushed" motor and it few well on 9-Cells and using 2200's (3-Cells each) in series.

I have done many of these Glow-to-Electric Conversions so, it is fun and no more challenging than getting up from bed for me.

Everyone keeps talking about watts, ya know, get so many watts per pound and the planes will fly great. I wish there was a way to erase this mode of thought and I really don't know who started and I really don't care as I have proven it wrong in all my conversions.

The idea is to emulate nitro performance, we are doing conversions, not modifications of already existing electric airplanes. These planes were designed to have small props and high RPMs, thus the whole wattage thing is out the window. When you consider a motor for a plane that has limited ground clearance, you work backward.

1. Determine the ground clearance.
2. What props will fit without trimming the grass or breaking on landing?
3. What motor will produce the most RPM for that prop. KV?
4. What is the max voltage capacity that the motor can take? (with small .46 equiv. motors, you would like 9,000 RPM)
5. Do you have a charger with enough capacity?
6. If you solve all of the above, you can stick on the watt meter and the tach, and you will find that the readings will fall within the expected results. The plane will fly great, and the ESC will stay cool.
7. For hot rod performance, up the voltage, but, don't burn out the motor.

In my opinion, the thing to remember is that target watts is only good if the prop size is not limited. When there is no limitation, a larger motor with less KV will work, because you can swing a larger prop. If there is a prop. size limitation, then watts are out and RPM is in.

Later in the day, I will post pictures of the power system I am planning to install on my Hangar9 F22 Raptor, the Himax HC3528-1000. However, for now, it looks like this.....

guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:33 PM
  #8  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
My questions are :

....................
........................................
.................................................. .........

I'm not trying to 'poop' over the conversion ... just putting a few ideas out and possible results ....

Personally I would be looking to lose weight ... the wheels for example ... and up the power ... lets be honest a Jet flying around is OK ... but one that has a good Power to Weight ratio and can pull the verticals etc. is a bit more exciting for pilot and spectator.

Nigel
Hey,

Most of your postings were not questions and rather some type of suggestions.

The questions for the power system are easily found at the various web sites that sell the power system I am about to use on my Raptor, most notably at:
http://www.maxxprod.com/mpi/mpi-262.html

I didn't select the larger motors with lower Kv's because I want to keep the model as light as possible and still maintain the correct Center-Of-Gravity. There are lots of people that opted using Motors with less than 500Kv but, to realize good propeller RPMs you need to go with no less than 6-Cells and that becomes HEAVY.

Yes correct, it is already at a little over 5 pounds USA and the need for creative thinking with respect to a motor that weighs-in at 6.9oz instead of 10 -to- 12 oz. is the better choice and using a 3-cell, 4400mAH, Li-Poly would not add that much weight.

My goals are to keep this Raptor less than 6.5lbs. at all possible, fully flight ready.

Good day.
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-05-2015, 08:45 PM
  #9  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,789
Default

No sweat .... I too am not a great follower of watts / lb .... I prefer to look at thrust vs weight.

I'm interested to see the results of this conversion.

Nigel
solentlife is offline  
Old 10-06-2015, 06:58 PM
  #10  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Exclamation Firewall - Glow Engine Mount Issue!

Guys,

Started with the project and found that someone secured the Glow Engine Mount a little too secure and perhaps used the permanent type of LocTite!:censored:

Using an Electric "Adjustable" Impact Driver, I was able to remove two of the bolts (Phillips head) on the Left side but, the two on the right side just didn't want to come out!:o:censored:

I carefully using a hand saw blade inside the FUSE and started to cut towards the blind nuts at the bolts that didn't want to come out and see about a neat way to slide the Blind Nuts and Bolts out but, it became messy! The FUSE is kind of tight and didn't want to destroy it with my large Gorilla Hands so, I took a screw driver and carefully pried the Glow Engine Mount that was lose toward the Left side and it finally came off the firewall with minor to moderate damage of the Firewall.

Found a large piece of 2/32nd plywood and worked a template and got some Gorilla Glue and now it is good as new and motor assembly is ready to be mounted. From measuring before taking off the cut-up cowling, I need at least 3/4th of an inch spacer to allow for the prop adapter to clear the cowling.

A few pictures of my ordeal.......












guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-06-2015, 08:54 PM
  #11  
fhhuber
Super Contributor
 
fhhuber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

too late now...

When I run into stuck bolts like that, I grind the heads off and then punch out the remains of the bolt with the blind nut..

***********

You wanted that OEM hole in the firewall and some air exit holes (ensuring a path for the air between) for cooling the ESC and battery.
fhhuber is offline  
Old 10-06-2015, 11:53 PM
  #12  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
too late now...

When I run into stuck bolts like that, I grind the heads off and then punch out the remains of the bolt with the blind nut..

***********

You wanted that OEM hole in the firewall and some air exit holes (ensuring a path for the air between) for cooling the ESC and battery.

There was no way in heck that anyone could get behind the head of any of the two bolts and the head itself was taperred and no way you could cut directly in front with that Glow Engine mount as the forks were in the way.

I did tap out the remaining blind nuts on the left and plan to install a piece of plywood on the inside. Thiscway I have a sandwich of two new plywood pieces and the existing.

The hole will be done tonight after I align the motor assembly with the cowling.

More to come.
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-07-2015, 07:04 AM
  #13  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,789
Default

Heat is the usual way to 'break' Loctite. Either a soldering iron on the bolt head or as I have ... a mini Butane torch.

Just a comment .... when I have a hole or failed bulkhead as you now have ... I used to use Epoxy to fill and face with Lite-Ply both sides. But now I have a lighter and just as strong method ... I substituted PU Glue (generic Gorilla Glue) for the Epoxy and clamp Lite-Ply either side . The PU expands filling every nook and cranny of the 'hole' ... the thin Lite-Ply with the PU creates a good new bulkhead.

Nigel
solentlife is offline  
Old 10-07-2015, 04:03 PM
  #14  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Guys,

So, like someone suggested, I used one (1) stock Glow Engine Mount hole and the Electric Motor assembly turned out off-set! I am so glad that I didn't drill the rest of the holes!

Needless to say this used motor seems to have suffered a nose in accident as the output shaft is slightly bent and a complete wave off is in effect and I am now looking for an alternative.

Oh, well......back to the hobby drawer!











guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-07-2015, 04:28 PM
  #15  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Hi there again,

Oh, I almost forgot.....seems like I really have the Himax HC3528-800 motor as the Watts, AMPs and Voltage from motor is in line with the characteristics of the 800Kv motor. Its too bad that the motor has a bent shaft as this lower Kv motor would have been interesting to increase the Prop Diameter slightly and/or use 4-Cell Li-Poly.

Oh well.......

Last edited by guapoman2000; 10-07-2015 at 09:50 PM.
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-08-2015, 01:45 PM
  #16  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Okay Guys,

I believe that I am back in business as I found myself this Emax 46 size motor on hand.

I plan to use it on 4s 3300-4000. It draws about 850w at 52a with an APC 12 x 6. Could be propped up a little if more power is needed but, ground clearance is the factor here as the F22 Raptor has a limit.

Here is the Specifications of the E-Max 46 Motor:
http://www.headsuphobby.com/Emax-BL3...otor-A-274.htm

guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-08-2015, 03:19 PM
  #17  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,789
Default

Originally Posted by guapoman2000 View Post
Hi there again,

Oh, I almost forgot.....seems like I really have the Himax HC3528-800 motor as the Watts, AMPs and Voltage from motor is in line with the characteristics of the 800Kv motor. Its too bad that the motor has a bent shaft as this lower Kv motor would have been interesting to increase the Prop Diameter slightly and/or use 4-Cell Li-Poly.

Oh well.......
There are plenty of third party suppliers of shafts and in different lengths / C clip placement / etc.

RCtimer.com is a good place to look ...

You can customise a motor with a shaft from them instead of putting up with too long / too short etc. Even shafts that taper from internal size to adaptor ...

Nigekl
solentlife is offline  
Old 10-08-2015, 03:20 PM
  #18  
solentlife
Super Contributor
 
solentlife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ex UK Brit now in Latvia west coast - Ventspils
Posts: 12,789
Default

I plan to use it on 4s 3300-4000. It draws about 850w at 52a with an APC 12 x 6. Could be propped up a little if more power is needed but, ground clearance is the factor here as the F22 Raptor has a limit
There are 12x7 and various other you could use if you need more thrust / power.

Nigel
solentlife is offline  
Old 10-08-2015, 04:29 PM
  #19  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Nigel,

Thanks so much for those tips! Much appreciate!

Carlos
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-08-2015, 04:31 PM
  #20  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

EMax 46 tips the Digital Scale at a little over 11 oz.
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-08-2015, 04:39 PM
  #21  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Oh Guys,

Almost forgot, that EMax 46 is the same motor from the Phoenix Giles G-202:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76339

Recall the G-202 tipped the digital scale at 7+lbs. fully flight ready and take-offs were at nothing above 3/4 throttle.

I can't wait to see this F22 Raptor take to the Air and pulled by this powerful brushless motor!

Here's a pic of the Giles G-202!
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-09-2015, 04:29 PM
  #22  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default Progressing very Aggressively !

Guys,

Second late night working on this F22 Raptor by Hangar9 and let me tell you that this is by far one of the most challenging models to convert as that dual heavy vertical stabs and overall weight of the rear with all that wood makes it really heavy to allow for a good reasonable power system and set of batteries to Off-Set all that weight in the AFT area.

Also, lets not forget the rather closed-in Frontal FUSE area to work with and the tiny tapered nose effect as you really can't use a metal cage hardware to mount any motor as it will interfere with the cowling. Resort is to use X-Mount with stand-off hardware and you have to be paying attention to every measurement before drilling.

Okay so, I have spent Tuesday late night and Thursday late night on working with this model and I am exhausted and will take a break unless of course I get a good night sleep tonight. The worse is the horror to find my newest motor (Emax 46) with a bent shaft as well, however, not that badly like the Himax HC3528-1000 so, with some patience and vice gripe pliers I was able to straighten out the out-put shaft of this motor! It really pays to have Gorilla Hands after all!

Yes, I have run up the motor several times to note where the high and low points were on the shaft and after the fix as well. Now the shaft is very tuned and no wobble what-so-ever! In-between runs of the motor and without the battery connected, sprayed some CRC 2-26 into the motor as this helps with the bearings and cleaned out that motor and now it runs much smoother and quieter.

Here are some close-up pictures that hopefully be self explanatory for all to see what I used and why. Of course feel free to ask questions should you have any.

















Close-up shows where I will be placing a small square piece of plywood to allow the battery to clear the ESC wires going to the motor and have a compartment for the ESC wires to stay safe from any unnecessary handling while inserting and taking out the flight battery.



Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion1.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	161.0 KB
ID:	181949   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion2.jpg
Views:	132
Size:	192.9 KB
ID:	181950   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion3.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	109.8 KB
ID:	181951   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion4.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	164.3 KB
ID:	181952   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion5.jpg
Views:	126
Size:	45.8 KB
ID:	181953  

Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion6.jpg
Views:	101
Size:	64.9 KB
ID:	181954   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion7.jpg
Views:	96
Size:	87.3 KB
ID:	181955   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion8.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	205.2 KB
ID:	181956   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion9.jpg
Views:	97
Size:	161.3 KB
ID:	181957   Click image for larger version

Name:	F22 Raptor Conversion10.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	195.4 KB
ID:	181958  


Last edited by guapoman2000; 10-09-2015 at 06:48 PM.
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-09-2015, 07:16 PM
  #23  
fhhuber
Super Contributor
 
fhhuber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,786
Default

I kind of expected the battery to end up under the canopy instead of back at the wing tube.

That's normal for all the glow conversions I have done. Stuff the battery where the fuel tank used to go. (or move the firewall forward so the battery can go even further forward)

If you still need more weight in front... bigger motor. Might as well make the weight useful.
fhhuber is offline  
Old 10-09-2015, 08:04 PM
  #24  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

fhhuber,

Thanks for that!


The EMax 46 is a 44mm diameter motor and it is perhaps the largest you can fit in the cowling.


I believe this TON TOSSY is going to fly right at 7lbs.


Tonight, I hope to complete the rest of it!


Later,
Guapo
guapoman2000 is offline  
Old 10-14-2015, 11:29 AM
  #25  
guapoman2000
Space Ship 1
Thread Starter
 
guapoman2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA
Posts: 1,439
Default

Guys,

Life keeps coming at me....work, family, house, cars, and friends and finally tonight ....wee hours of the early morning got some work done on this fantastic discontinued Hangar9 RC Raptor!

The servos used for Elevator & Rudder are the JR Sport (ST47). These are slightly smaller than the Hitec HS-311 / HS325HB and even the Futaba S3003.

I tried the Futaba 3003, Hitec HS-311 / HS325HB and they just didn't want to go in the STOCK cut-out so, I am thankful that I had the JR Sport ST47's on hand. I suspect that since the JR's are distributed by Horizon Hobbies and Hangar9 is a based product line of HH then, the JR SPORT were meant to be in this model.











Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Raptor1 10-14-2015.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	194.5 KB
ID:	181980   Click image for larger version

Name:	Raptor2 10-14-2015.jpg
Views:	108
Size:	145.8 KB
ID:	181981   Click image for larger version

Name:	Raptor3 10-14-2015.jpg
Views:	118
Size:	218.6 KB
ID:	181982   Click image for larger version

Name:	Raptor4 10-14-2015.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	198.0 KB
ID:	181983   Click image for larger version

Name:	Raptor5 10-14-2015.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	176.6 KB
ID:	181984  

Click image for larger version

Name:	Raptor6 10-14-2015.jpg
Views:	120
Size:	290.7 KB
ID:	181985  
guapoman2000 is offline  

Quick Reply: Hangar 9 F22 Raptor Glow-To-Electric Conversion


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.

Page generated in 0.14919 seconds with 28 queries