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New motor runs HOT!

Old 04-06-2011, 02:51 AM
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xmech2k
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Default New motor runs HOT!

OK, I studied the 'Everything You Wanted to Know About Electric Flight' section here, and came up with this combo to re-power my underpowered Phase3 P-40:

Motor 1200kv - 16A - 11V
ESC 20A - 30A burst - 2 to 4 cell lipo
Batt 3s - 1600 mAh - 20C
Used P-40 stock prop, which through some research, I guess is 8.5x8

I ran with the batt at 50% charge, and while I did pull 17.6A peak for a few seconds, it usually was 15 or below. Peak watts was 186. The motor started getting hot at higher power, so I ran it at lower power and it still gets hotter. ESC was getting a little warm, too.

Is something wrong with my setup with the electronics side, or is it just too much prop? I figured the stock motor never got hot, so the same prop on a stronger motor would be OK. (Stock setup pulled max 10.4A 104W)

I guess since motors don't have a 'burst' rating, the 17.6A isn't cool? (Pardon the pun...)

Thanks in advance for any input!
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:27 AM
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what make model of motor? do you have an 8X5 to try?
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:33 AM
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My guess is that your motor is a little over proped, the motor specs. will help. MFG, SIZE, ETC.
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:41 AM
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If you're running on the bench - ANY motor will run hot.

Also, running at less than full throttle is harder on the esc than running at full throttle so it will also run hotter on the bench for that reason plus the lack of cooling AIR FLOW.

The prop moves a lot of air but very little of that movement is at the center where the motor is. IIRC, 90%+ of the air flow is in the outer 20-30% of the diameter.

A better gauge is to know if that 17 amps or so in the spec range for that motor? How heavy is it?
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Old 04-06-2011, 04:43 AM
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If it's hot > it has too much prop, assuming nothing else is wrong.

Just because a different motor successfully uses a particular prop is not indication that it will work on other motors. Go with the manuf. recommendation to start. You prop to the motor, not the plane. You choose the motor based on the plane.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:56 AM
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Running using a partially charged battery is not a good way to test your set-up. Fully charged battery please.

Running at partial throttle gives you the illusion that you are running at a lower amp rate than you are. That is because your wattmeter reports average amps not true amps. Your ESC pulses the power to the motor to manage the speed. So, you could be getting 22 amp pulses that average out to 17 because you are running at partial throttle.

The ONLY way to really understand what is happening is to run the set-up with a freshly charged battery at full throttle. Then you get a true reading on the wattmeter.

Many motors do have burst ratings but these are typically for about 15 seconds.

What prop does your motor MFG suggest for that motor?
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:41 PM
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Thx for all the responses. Here's the motor: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...idproduct=2104 For a prop suggestion it says "9?~5".

Here's the ESC: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dproduct=13430

The motor's attached to the end of a 2x4 right now, and along the thoughts of airflow, the spinner adapter was on the adapter, so it's like a 2" diameter disc right in front of the prop!

I'll stop by the LHS on the way home from work today and pick up a 9x5 (Suggested) and 8x5 (As Kevinm suggests) and maybe a few others to try an assortment. I was just hoping to keep the original, as the source that gave the prop size (Phase3 only gives the part number) says it's such a high pitch for a higher top speed.

My failure, I just noticed the motor is rated 4-13 operating amps, and 16 burst current. Maybe I selected the wrong motor for this project... So I guess if I see the wattmeter go to 16 amps before full throttle, I shouldn't push it any farther.

I have a scale for it, but haven't built a thrust testing rig yet, so I'll just have to go by wattmeter ratings for now, I guess.


Thanks again for the guidance! I'll report back with the results, and will try with a full battery. Sigh.... so much to learn. Fun and interesting, though!
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:54 PM
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First, my compliments for reading my book and then getting a wattmeter. You are doing the right things.

Let's walk this situation and see what we can learn from your experience and the experience of others.


According to the specs, this is a 13 amp motor that can peak at 16 (15 seconds) for about 140-150 sustained watts and a peak of about 175 watts. (15 seconds)


When reading specs, note prop ranges are inverse to voltage.

The specs say 2-4S and 9 to 5" prop. That means the higher the voltage the smaller the prop. On this motor, a 9" would work on a 2S pack, perhaps a 9X5 or 9X6 But a 9" on a 3S pack will be too much. On 3S I would expect a 7 or 8" prop. If you went to a 4S pack you would be running a 5 or 6" prop.

That doesn't mean ANY 7 or 8" prop. A 7X6 might be OK, but you would go to an 8X5 or 8X4 for similar amps.

So your 8.5X8 prop is too wide and too deep. an 8.5X3 might work.


One good thing about Hobbyking is that users can post reviews. Now you get the guy who says he can run this at 260 watts .... we ignore him. We look for people who post reviews that are in or close to the rated range and we look for several.

Reports are that an 8X6 is too steep, pulling 18 amps on the bench. In the air it might pull 15% less or about 15.5 amps, but that is still too much for sustained flight.

Reading the user reviews, the happy users are running 7 and 8" props with a 3-6" pitch. So a 7X6 or 8X4 looks promising. You might try a 9X3 or something like that if you want more thrust and less speed, but not sure what it will do.


Here are some of the stats from the reviews:

here are some datas taken from a medusa wattmeter after 30s full throttle, full charge lipo :

- APC 8x3.8 SF : 118W, 11.90A and 9050 rpm
- GWS 8x4 EP : 99W, 9.55A and 10550 rpm
- APC 7x5 EP : 98W, 9.50A and 10600 rpm

What do we see from this test? Note here that not all props are equal. The 8X3.8 APC SF pulls more than the 8X4 GWS EP due to the shape of the prop. Also note that the SF had a lower RPM indicating that the battery he was using was likely showoing more voltage sag under the load. This prop pushed the battery pack hard.

Also note that these numbers are AFTER he ran it a full throttle for 30 seconds. His readings on a fresh, fully charged battery would be higher. The 8X4 and 7X5 have almost the same amp draw. This seems to follow the rough guideline that if you go up in diamater 1" then you go down 1" in pitch to maintain a similar amp draw.

Here is another:


I use the motor with a 8*3.8 APC SF prop. Here are some data on full throttle:
10,8V
13,5A
10.200 RPM

Note he is getting some voltage sag, but not alarming. Also note that this one was probably taken on a fresh battery, not after 30 seconds, so he gets a higher reading on the same prop as above. If the voltage were to hold above 11V he would be getting higher amp readings. When would this happen? Well if you were running a 20C pack but only pulling at a 10C rate the voltage would hold higher. I typically run my packs at about 1/2 to 2/3 of their rated C and try not to exceed 80% of rated C. Voltage holds up better and it is less burdensome on the pack.


Test with a 3S 780mAh Lipo:
Prop: 9x4,7 GWS: 14Amps 701g thrust

I would expect he is getting some significant voltage sag, perhaps 10.5V, which will lower the amp draw, as he is running that pack at about 18C. I have no evidence to support that but as your amp draw approaches the limit of the pack the voltage will drop more under load. If that is a 20C pack he is running it near its limit. If he were to put a 1200 20C pack he might get a higher amp reading becuse this pack would not be working as hard and might sustain 11+V under load.

Again he will likely get a 15% unload in the air so his in flight numbers will be lower and the pack will be less burdened, but I think he is pushing the pack hard. I think that prop is too wide.

Just showing how things can affect each other.

My recommendations

I would say the GWS 8X4 EP or the APC 8X3.8 SF look like a good match for this motor. Since props are cheap, pick up some others to try. You could try the 9X3 if you can find one and you were curious.


If you are more interested in speed than thrust, or if you need the ground clearence, then you go to the 7X5 EP which also seems to be a good fit.


About voltage sage and amps:

I have an e-glider that I have been running for years on 1500 mah 8C pack. When new, teh the motor pulls 12 amps which is right at the limit of the pack, so I have been using it. No problems, but I only use high throttle for short bursts for climbs.

Recently I put in a 1500 20C pack. And found the motor pulling 15 amps.

What that tells me is that the 8C pack has been struggeling, running at its limit resulting in significant voltage sag, which slows the prop.

The 1500 20C, rated for 30 amps, is not running anywhere near its limit so voltage is holding above 11.1 V for a significant period of time. With a pack rated for up to 30 amps, 16 amps is not a big burden. I don't get the voltage sag and the system produced more power with the same motor/prop.

As it turns out, with the 1500 20C pack I may actually be exceeding the rated sustained capacity of this motor by a bit. I may be a bit over propped, but since it is an e- glider I only run it for 20 second at a time so it has plenty of time to cool. I can get away with that.


I hope this analysis is helpful in your prep of this plane and in your understanding of motors/batteries and props.
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Old 04-06-2011, 05:22 PM
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Wow AEAJR! What great info. I never thought to check people's reviews on the motors and see what they were getting. I'm glad I posted this to the beginners section, as I see I still have a ways to learn! At this point I really am beginning to think I should have gone with a little bigger motor, although not having a wattmeter before, I didn't see what the stock performance was. I just knew I flew it twice and it was so slow I could barely keep it flying. I think something may be wrong with the original motor and/or esc. Once I was running it up in the garage and it would give full throttle for a second or 2, then would really slow down, even though the stick was still at full. It was still in the plane at that time, so I didn't notice or even think to check if anything overheated, but now that i have a wattmeter and have them running on the bench, they do not get hot at all, and did not repeat the power loss incident.

So with a wattmeter, and what I'm learning here, I'll give the other props you're suggesting a try, but I think ultimately if I'm looking for a real performance gain, I'll have to go for a 30A ESC and still bigger motor. One of the reasons I chose this motor was it looked like a drop-in replacement size-wise. I'll just have to see what the new props give.

Thanks again, AEAJR and everyone! I think this site has the most helpfull and friendliest crowd of any I've visited! I'll have to order some Wattflyer swag tonight!
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:21 PM
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AEAJR
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Watts per pound! Not burst watts but continous watts. That should be your first level guide.
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:00 AM
  #11  
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Well, while one battery was charging, I tried these APC SF props with the mid-charged battery: 7x5, 8x3.8, 9x3.8

Based on that I tried the 9x3.8 with the full batt. Got peak 16A, 187w. Let it run at lower power to see how the battery drop would effect it. Found that within a minute, at 75% power I had a little less than 9A and 100w. The motor was not as hot as before, but it was still way too hot. And I got rid of the spinner backplate so I didn't block what little airflow i could get.

Tomorrow, I'll charge up again and see what the 8x3.8 will do.

Based on that 9x3.8, I'm convinced I got too weak of a motor for this plane. Like I mentioned before, it's a Phase3 P-40. It has a 39.5" wingspan and weighs 25 oz. (1.56 Lb) So at that 75% power I had, that gave me around 64 w/lb. Between casual and sport. I was hoping more for something between sport and aggressive. Time to shop around, for another power system for this plane, and a plane for the power system I have now!
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:19 AM
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http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...-no-radio.html shes a beaut, - and its all about that monstrous spinner , so we need to find a motor that runs exceptionally cool with little air -(well, it does got the scoop under the prop so air in is probably good)
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Old 04-07-2011, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kevinm View Post
http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...-no-radio.html shes a beaut, - and its all about that monstrous spinner , so we need to find a motor that runs exceptionally cool with little air -
Yeah, part of this process will definitely be to make sure that motor gets good airflow! And I doubt I'll be able to use that giant spinner in the upgrade. I think it's 2-1/2" diameter! Dang, it's hard enough to sort through the motor ratings, now I'll have to find a prop adapter AND matching spinner to work with it all.... Makes me see why a Slow Stick would be appealing, but I like the scale ones.

What amazes me, 1)there are YouTube videos to prove that guys flew it just fine with the stock setup. 2)That the stock setup I had turned that big prop at all, without smoking. Guess if it doesn't try turning it much, it won't get smoked...
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Old 04-08-2011, 04:32 AM
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OK, for anyone still interested, here are the peak #'s on a full battery:

7x5 prop 11.4A 136.13w
8x3.8 14.3A 169.92w
9x3.8 15.9A 187w

Motor was just a little warm with the 7" & 8" props, really hot with the 9". I forgot the meter I have can take temp measurements, too. That would have been interesting.

Anyways, as I said before, this rules out this motor for the P-40. I'm searching for a more suitable replacement now, armed with a little more knowledge and wisdom, thanks you guys. What did we do before the internet?
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
OK, I studied the 'Everything You Wanted to Know About Electric Flight' section here, and came up with this combo to re-power my underpowered Phase3 P-40:

Motor 1200kv - 16A - 11V
ESC 20A - 30A burst - 2 to 4 cell lipo
Batt 3s - 1600 mAh - 20C
Used P-40 stock prop, which through some research, I guess is 8.5x8

I ran with the batt at 50% charge, and while I did pull 17.6A peak for a few seconds, it usually was 15 or below. Peak watts was 186. The motor started getting hot at higher power, so I ran it at lower power and it still gets hotter. ESC was getting a little warm, too.

Is something wrong with my setup with the electronics side, or is it just too much prop? I figured the stock motor never got hot, so the same prop on a stronger motor would be OK. (Stock setup pulled max 10.4A 104W)

I guess since motors don't have a 'burst' rating, the 17.6A isn't cool? (Pardon the pun...)

Thanks in advance for any input!
How hot is hot?

Generally if you can hold your fingers on the motor for 15 seconds after the power is shut off without branding the name of the motor into your finger tips, the temperature is OK, at least for a high quality motor. Kind of a very general rule of thumb is don't run these motors more than about 100 watts per ounce of motor weight, your motor is somewhere in the area of 115 watts /ounce or so.
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:49 PM
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Clearly the 7X5 is good but won't meet your goals.

I would say the 8X3.8 would be fine as long as you don't plan to run full power all the time. That is over 80 watts per pound when you need it.

You will get at least a 15% unload in the air and maybe a bit more. So that would take you to about 12 amps. As long as you don't plan to run full power all the time that might be OK, but you are pushing the motor. That would be fine for a sport plane. Just make sure you have plenty of cooling.

You could mount it and fly it and see how you like it. Then you could look for another motor if you feel you need more.
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Old 04-14-2011, 12:59 AM
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OK. While ordering Chellie's (good) suggestion for the UBEC from HeadsupRC, I searched there and found their power 450 sport motor and some props. I payed attention to the specs and props. While they list a max amp rating for the motor, they didn't give a continuous amp rating. (20A max given) Got the GWS EP-1060 and GWS HD 9050x3. Oh, and a 32A ESC! So here's what I got with my 3s 1600mAH 20C batt, full charge:

9050x3: 18.1A 211W
at 60-75% power getting around 10A 100w

1060: 19.8A 231.8w
60-75% 10-11a 100-110W

I think they are close enough that I'll go with the 3 blade for looks and ground clearance.

Now for a good electric spinner. I ordered a couple of 2&1/2" Du-bro spinners from them, but they're pretty heavy so I think either they are only meant for IC engines, or it's an unusually big spinner for this size motor, owing to the scale requirements of the P-40. Any input on this? Should I start another thread on the subject for other newbs who run into this?

Last edited by xmech2k; 04-14-2011 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:38 AM
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I'd say keep it going here. You've helped a lot of people with your little problem and matching motors to planes and props to motors is always the big deal with ARF or kit airplanes. Good job explaining the situation so the right people (Ed especially) could step in and explain the solutions. For anyone looking to buy a motor from Hobby King or similar supplier, this thread is a five star thread!
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Old 04-14-2011, 01:48 AM
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OK, thanks RR.

Well, Google to the rescue again. A brief search came up with this;

http://www.atlantahobby.com/Store/pc...-508p13467.htm

and this:

http://www.extremeflightrc.com/store...918ab80c4b8bc4

So I'm thinking the heavy Du-Bro spinners aren't for electric, at least not my little motor. I'll be ordering from ExtremeflightRC, since they show the red ones in stock, so I won't have to paint it.

Aw dang! I just realized, these are for 2 blade props! If it's not one thing it's another. Guess I'll be flying the 1050 prop when it shows up. Well, out comes the credit card again. This learning process is adding up! I mean, ALL this, and I still have to find another airplane for that first motor I ordered, not to mention I need to do something with the one that came out of the P-40 in the first place...
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Old 04-23-2011, 05:42 AM
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Well, thanks to Model Aviation magazine spotlighting E-Power http://rcmicroflite.3dcartstores.com/ connectors that connect between your battery and ESC with a breakout cable to the UBEC, I have the P-40 all together and ready to fly.

Weight has gone up from (From instructions) 25 ounces to 27.2 oz. I had to add weight to the tail to just get inside the fwd CG range. But with that 10x6 prop and a real spinner, this thing looks like it means business! The spinner to cowl gap is a little big, I'd have to take 1/4" off the engine mount to make it look right. I'll wait and make sure it survives before I bother.

HeadsUpRC says the motor/prop combo on 3s gives (gulp!!) 37 oz thrust! One reason I'd rather have gone with the 3 blade prop. (Only 34 oz thrust) Maybe this is a bad idea... I'm bringing trash bags to the field tomorrow!
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by xmech2k View Post
OK, thanks RR.

Well, Google to the rescue again. A brief search came up with this;

http://www.atlantahobby.com/Store/pc...-508p13467.htm

and this:

http://www.extremeflightrc.com/store...918ab80c4b8bc4

So I'm thinking the heavy Du-Bro spinners aren't for electric, at least not my little motor. I'll be ordering from ExtremeflightRC, since they show the red ones in stock, so I won't have to paint it.

Aw dang! I just realized, these are for 2 blade props! If it's not one thing it's another. Guess I'll be flying the 1050 prop when it shows up. Well, out comes the credit card again. This learning process is adding up! I mean, ALL this, and I still have to find another airplane for that first motor I ordered, not to mention I need to do something with the one that came out of the P-40 in the first place...
With this hobby, dont put your credit card away Just leave it out you will be using it quite a bit sorry to say Take Care and have fun, Chellie
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Old 04-23-2011, 11:10 PM
  #22  
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Well, in case anyone is still watching this soap opera, the P-40 survived this morning, and of all planes, the Apprentice did not! I couldn't believe there were only 2 other people at the field this morning, but I figured, great, leass witnesses. But the p-40 flew as well as I guess the Phase3 P-40 can be expected to. (Never seems to want to go in the direction its pointed, she keeps you on your toes) I took her up, did a couple of circuits, went up high and slowed to get a feel for a safe landing speed, then shot 3 approaches and made a great landing. All in a little over 3 minutes, and the meter said the battery was still at over 70%. I don't recall ever giving it full throttle, but it went fast enough. I think I was busy trimming.

Long story short, this motor seems to be good. Sorry for all the extra chatting. Can't wait to get more comfortable with it and try full power. Thanks for all the help again.

BTW, I e-mailed extremeflightrc.com about the e-spinners for 3 bladed props. Haven't heard back yet. The 2 bladed spinner works great.

(The Apprentice was victim to an aileron servo going bad. But it's only a prop, cowl, and motor mount. Amazing! Spinning nose dive into some short grass.)
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:36 AM
  #23  
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I'm glad to hear that you're happy with the performance of the P-40. But the plane that REALLY performed was the Apprentice. That is such minimal repair necessary for a really bad crash! Grass is good!

Last edited by Rockin Robbins; 04-24-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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