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Cellpro Multi4 Error

Old 09-13-2010, 03:01 AM
  #1  
Jezmo
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Question Cellpro Multi4 Error

I moved preset 1 to another location and then tried to copy preset 10 to location 1. I get an error that says - ALLOW 0V CHARGING needs to be set to No. When I double click the error to go to the property page I get a second message which reads - Preset Property ZeroChargeList is hidden in Developer Properties. Bottom line is I can't get preset 1 to be an A123 setting ---Help...
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:12 AM
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butch,i to use fma cellpro and have 2 revolution4's with one of them always charging in safety mode. some how i must have pushed to read button to many times and screwed up the settings. is there a way to reset the charger to factory default settings with out sending it to fma? i hope you get your charger straighten out. sorry i don't have any answers or instructions laying around.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:37 PM
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I bought the USB interface module so I can program mine by computer. (It's about 15 dollars) In that device's software there is a default settings button to put it back to factory settings. Hope that helps.
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by stuart View Post
butch,i to use fma cellpro and have 2 revolution4's with one of them always charging in safety mode. some how i must have pushed to read button to many times and screwed up the settings. is there a way to reset the charger to factory default settings with out sending it to fma? i hope you get your charger straighten out. sorry i don't have any answers or instructions laying around.
Hello:

Although you did not specify, from your post, it looks like the Cellpro chargers you have are Cellpro 4s, either the original or the Gold. Just so you know, Jezmo's recommendation to purchase the PC interface will not allow you to factory restore these particular charger models. He has a Cellpro Multi4 which does support this feature.

In regard to one unit always going in to safety charge, this is usually the result of the following:

1) Your battery pack is going bad.
2) The contacts on either your battery pack, your adapter, or the charger itself are dirty or they are wearing out. You can try to clean all the contacts using spray contact cleaner. You can pick it up at Radio Shack. Use a tooth brush to really get down in there and get the dirt out.

Sincerely,


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Old 09-15-2010, 02:31 AM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by Jezmo View Post
I moved preset 1 to another location and then tried to copy preset 10 to location 1. I get an error that says - ALLOW 0V CHARGING needs to be set to No. When I double click the error to go to the property page I get a second message which reads - Preset Property ZeroChargeList is hidden in Developer Properties. Bottom line is I can't get preset 1 to be an A123 setting ---Help...
Hi:

I see that you picked up a PC interface and that you were able to successfully factory restore your Cellpro Multi4 charger. That's good. I'm not sure why you experienced the problem you had in the first place, however. Perhaps if you save the presets you are working on to your HD and/or utilize the library presets rather than moving a user preset, you will have better luck obtaining what you desire. Also, you could just hide any of the presets you don't use and narrow your list down to a few?

Thanks,

Tim Marks
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:42 AM
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hello Tim,thanks for the support and answer. just to be sure, the chargers i have are the" cell pro rev-olution 4S" . the one thats giving me trouble is the one i most often used,both at home and then in the field using a 12v wheelchair battery as a power source. now I'm using the less used charger and every things charging quick as before.

i always time my battery flight times so when i have to charge it won't take long to reach 4.20 for each cell. to tell the truth with the price of 6cell lipos coming down i may spring for one of your newer chargers. so far the largest packs I'm using are 3cell 4000mah in series.

thanks for making a great product line and for the personal support you give your customers. I'll try the contact cleaner and will let you know how that works.
thanks again,Stu
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:21 AM
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Yes Tim, I purchased the interface and charger at the same time. Thanks for the idea on hiding the first group of presets (LiPo) as that will most likely solve my problem. I charge A123's more than LiPo's so that's why I want the A123's to show up first. I can always create the LiPo settings as a user preset which will come after the Library settings.

It's a very good charger and I like it so much I ordered another.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim Marks View Post
Hello:

Although you did not specify, from your post, it looks like the Cellpro chargers you have are Cellpro 4s, either the original or the Gold. Just so you know, Jezmo's recommendation to purchase the PC interface will not allow you to factory restore these particular charger models. He has a Cellpro Multi4 which does support this feature.

Tim Marks
Hi Tim
I've built two of my own high power (400 watt) A123 chargers, but do not include a balancer system. That is done separately.

I've found that these A123 cells have such a flat discharge and charge voltage curve, in my opinion, just discharging them to the same voltage for balancing them just doesn't work. In fact, I damaged a 6S2P A123 pack last year doing exactly that.

What I've found works, at least for me, is to charge the individual cells to 3.60 Volts DC.

Quick question, do your Cell Pro various chargers charge each series cell (or parallel cells) to the proper maximum 3.6 volts (or 4.2 volts for Lipo) through the balance cables during the charging process?

Just curious.

Thanks Dennis V
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:14 AM
  #9  
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I'm sure Tim can offer a more technical answer but here is my take. My Cellpro Multi4 "only" connects and charges through the balance tap. There is NO connection to the main power lead, only the balance tap, so no charging is done through the power lead (series) and yes it does charge each individual cell to 3.6V.
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Old 09-18-2010, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jezmo View Post
I'm sure Tim can offer a more technical answer but here is my take. My Cellpro Multi4 "only" connects and charges through the balance tap. There is NO connection to the main power lead, only the balance tap, so no charging is done through the power lead (series) and yes it does charge each individual cell to 3.6V.
Thanks for the info!

That's interesting, that indicates that the Cellpro Multi4 can't charge at the very high rates the A123 cells are capable of. The balance cables can't handle the current.
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Old 09-18-2010, 03:44 PM
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You are correct. My A123's are used in such a way that I don't need the rapid charge capabilities. My Cellpro will charge them at 4 amps and that's plenty for my needs. I never deplete them fully and most charge times are around 15 to 20 mins as they are being used as receiver packs on Giant Scale Planes.
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jezmo View Post
You are correct. My A123's are used in such a way that I don't need the rapid charge capabilities. My Cellpro will charge them at 4 amps and that's plenty for my needs. I never deplete them fully and most charge times are around 15 to 20 mins as they are being used as receiver packs on Giant Scale Planes.
Interesting, one of my club members who has been flying models for near 50 years has been flying wet turbines for the past 5 or 6 years. He'd been using Nicad batteries for the receiver and turbine electronics.

He went to primary/backup A123 packs last year for the radio, and is planning to have his turbine electronics converted to A123 batteries this winter.

He's indicated he will NEVER go back to the Nicads or Nih batteries, and won't go to the Lipos because of issues they have.

As for me, I've got three 6S2P and two 4S1P packs, all of which are three years old. One of them just passed 200 flights last weekend. That pack has the same exact performance as when they were brand new, three years ago. The packs are charged at 10 Amps, discharged at about 60 Amps. As a rule, I never discharge them more than about 65% or so on any particular flight.

Next year, I'll have a Hacker A60-18L motor with 12S2P A123 packs, running over 2 KW. Got the 24 loose cells all ready, motor is showing up Monday. Should be interesting.
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Hi Tim
I've built two of my own high power (400 watt) A123 chargers, but do not include a balancer system. That is done separately.

I've found that these A123 cells have such a flat discharge and charge voltage curve, in my opinion, just discharging them to the same voltage for balancing them just doesn't work. In fact, I damaged a 6S2P A123 pack last year doing exactly that.

What I've found works, at least for me, is to charge the individual cells to 3.60 Volts DC.

Quick question, do your Cell Pro various chargers charge each series cell (or parallel cells) to the proper maximum 3.6 volts (or 4.2 volts for Lipo) through the balance cables during the charging process?

Just curious.

Thanks Dennis V
Hi:

All Cellpro chargers deliver charge current through the entire series-wired pack. The balancers are shunt circuits. Their task is to syphon off the main charge current from the weakest cells in the pack. The weak cells are the cells in the pack with the smallest effective capacity which come up on charge faster than the stronger (higher capacity) cells.

I agree, you should never balance discharge a battery pack. Balancing on the way down only forces the pack into a more "un-balanced" state. Reducing the effective charge current to weaker cells is the most practical and most cost-effective solution.

Additionally, Cellpro chargers integrate the balance circuits inside of the charger. Each balance circuit is computer controlled by the same uC that handles all other functions of charging. The Cellpro chargers, by default, implement proportional control of the balance circuitry which results in a finer resolution that other digital (ON/OFF) control methods. This improves the accuracy of the charge. In our higher output units (CP10S and PL8), we also offer the highest balance current in the industry, and we begin balancing earlier in the charge process. Our goal is to charge more accurately and faster.

Of course, some people have other theories about why balancing later in the charge, or digital control of balancers works better. This is why we allow the customer full control of these operating parameters in the more advanced units such as the CP Multi4 or the PowerLab 8. For these units, the Charge Control Software (CCS) offers access to between 70 and 100 adjustable parameters per preset. We try to make our products span a wide range of target market, from plug-and-play to fully customizable. We do business with OEM's outside of the R/C industry and in these scenarios, customization comes in extremely handy. We can program custom presets and deliver exactly what the customer needs simply by loading up custom firmware, custom presets, or charger options.

Tim Marks
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:07 PM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Jezmo View Post
I'm sure Tim can offer a more technical answer but here is my take. My Cellpro Multi4 "only" connects and charges through the balance tap. There is NO connection to the main power lead, only the balance tap, so no charging is done through the power lead (series) and yes it does charge each individual cell to 3.6V.
Hello:

In any Li battery pack with balance connectors, the red/black balance wires AND the red/black discharge wires are connected to exactly the same points on the battery pack; that is the + and - terminals of the battery pack. Colors referenced subject to change.

By ohm's law, current will always flow through the path of least resistance. So it does not matter if you connect the discharge leads along with the balance connector to the charger. The battery will still charge the same way. But the small wires and pins on the balance lead can only handle low current (3-4 amps). For a 50W class product like CP4S or CP Multi4 which can not deliver above 4A, the discharge leads are not required for charging, but the charger still functions the same way as if they were connected.

These are difficult concepts for some to understand. If you can get this down, you have made a big leap in understanding ohm's law and how electricity flows in a circuit. In a bigger wire, the resistance is lower. In layman's terms, you can pack more electrons into a bigger wire.

Tim Marks
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Marks View Post
Hi:

All Cellpro chargers deliver charge current through the entire series-wired pack. The balancers are shunt circuits. Their task is to syphon off the main charge current from the weakest cells in the pack. The weak cells are the cells in the pack with the smallest effective capacity which come up on charge faster than the stronger (higher capacity) cells.

I agree, you should never balance discharge a battery pack. Balancing on the way down only forces the pack into a more "un-balanced" state. Reducing the effective charge current to weaker cells is the most practical and most cost-effective solution.

Additionally, Cellpro chargers integrate the balance circuits inside of the charger. Each balance circuit is computer controlled by the same uC that handles all other functions of charging. The Cellpro chargers, by default, implement proportional control of the balance circuitry which results in a finer resolution that other digital (ON/OFF) control methods. This improves the accuracy of the charge. In our higher output units (CP10S and PL8), we also offer the highest balance current in the industry, and we begin balancing earlier in the charge process. Our goal is to charge more accurately and faster.

Of course, some people have other theories about why balancing later in the charge, or digital control of balancers works better. This is why we allow the customer full control of these operating parameters in the more advanced units such as the CP Multi4 or the PowerLab 8. For these units, the Charge Control Software (CCS) offers access to between 70 and 100 adjustable parameters per preset. We try to make our products span a wide range of target market, from plug-and-play to fully customizable. We do business with OEM's outside of the R/C industry and in these scenarios, customization comes in extremely handy. We can program custom presets and deliver exactly what the customer needs simply by loading up custom firmware, custom presets, or charger options.

Tim Marks
Hi Tim
Thanks for your detailed response. Just to verify, after your PowerLab 8 charges a 12S2P A123 pack, each series cell will be topped off at exactly 3.60 Volts DC?

(If one of my high power A123 chargers ever quits, I'll be looking for a PowerLab 8. I'm all ready using two 120 Ampere Hour deep cycle batteries in parallel for my charging setup.)
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Marks View Post
Hello:

In any Li battery pack with balance connectors, the red/black balance wires AND the red/black discharge wires are connected to exactly the same points on the battery pack; that is the + and - terminals of the battery pack. Colors referenced subject to change.

These are difficult concepts for some to understand. If you can get this down, you have made a big leap in understanding ohm's law and how electricity flows in a circuit. In a bigger wire, the resistance is lower. In layman's terms, you can pack more electrons into a bigger wire.

Tim Marks

Perhaps a visual drawing of a typical 5S2P battery pack will help the wattflyer readers.

Take a look.
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:12 PM
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does anyone know if i push and hold the side button on the cellpro4's rev-olution and then turn on the power it will reset the charger to factory default setting? thanks,stu
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Old 09-19-2010, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Hi Tim
Thanks for your detailed response. Just to verify, after your PowerLab 8 charges a 12S2P A123 pack, each series cell will be topped off at exactly 3.60 Volts DC?

(If one of my high power A123 chargers ever quits, I'll be looking for a PowerLab 8. I'm all ready using two 120 Ampere Hour deep cycle batteries in parallel for my charging setup.)
Hi:

Yes, pictures work well. Here's one to answer your question. By default the PL8 will charge A123 to precisely 3.65v per cell. But the end charge voltage is one of the many parameters that can easily be altered by the user, by preset. This can be done either at the PL8 interface, or using the free CCS. The attached screen capture shows what it looks like on the Preset tab when you want to adjust the parameter titled Charge Voltage. The screen capture only shows a short list. But the range is 3-4v in 5 uV increments.

If you're seriously interested in picking up a PL8, you might want to go ahead and install the Charge Control Software from the following link. Even if you don't own the PL8, it loads up template presets so you can get a feel for how things work. You can also utilize the on-line help within the CCS which is context sensitive.

Just click on the Free PL8 Charge Control Software link from the following page:

http://www.revolectrix.com/pl8_links_tab.htm

Tim Marks
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim Marks View Post
Hi:

Yes, pictures work well. Here's one to answer your question. By default the PL8 will charge A123 to precisely 3.65v per cell. But the end charge voltage is one of the many parameters that can easily be altered by the user, by preset. This can be done either at the PL8 interface, or using the free CCS. The attached screen capture shows what it looks like on the Preset tab when you want to adjust the parameter titled Charge Voltage. The screen capture only shows a short list. But the range is 3-4v in 5 uV increments.

If you're seriously interested in picking up a PL8, you might want to go ahead and install the Charge Control Software from the following link. Even if you don't own the PL8, it loads up template presets so you can get a feel for how things work. You can also utilize the on-line help within the CCS which is context sensitive.

Just click on the Free PL8 Charge Control Software link from the following page:

http://www.revolectrix.com/pl8_links_tab.htm

Tim Marks
Thanks Tim
That answers all my questions.

Maybe if my 2011 tax refund looks good, I'll order the PL8!
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Old 09-19-2010, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by stuart View Post
does anyone know if i push and hold the side button on the cellpro4's rev-olution and then turn on the power it will reset the charger to factory default setting? thanks,stu
Hi:

Sorry, no. Also, there really aren't any setting to "factory restore" in this charger.

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Old 09-19-2010, 12:23 PM
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thanks tim,i realize the cost of the charger similar to mine,if not the same one is only $40 so i will go that route. thanks again,stu
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by stuart View Post
thanks tim,i realize the cost of the charger similar to mine,if not the same one is only $40 so i will go that route. thanks again,stu
Hi:

From this post, I assume then that something has stopped working on your old Cellpro 4s. If you're looking to replace it, consider the Cellpro 4s GOLD.

http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Pro...ellpro-4s-GOLD

This one is an improved version of the original. It has a plastic back, other reliability improvements, and supports firmware updates when you purchase the FUIM3 PC interface along with it.

Maybe the GOLD is the one you're looking at?

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