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Flaperons question

Old 02-12-2012, 04:24 PM
  #1  
Rbwindover
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Default Flaperons question

Hi, I have a 4 channel trainer. It has individual aileron servos. To make these flaperons, what is the simplest way? Does it have to involve mixing on he TX?

Thanks in advance, Rob
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:33 PM
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solentlife
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As ,ong as you have a 'serious' radio with programming ........ then yes it's fairly simple.
Basically it's time to get the radio manual out !! If you don't have one - tell us here what radio / model and we'll try to sort ...
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:07 PM
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Some glider fliers think that there is little benefit for conventional powered models and that effectiveness of ailerons is diminished. Others think that they can be of benefit. Not much harm in trying flaperons if you have mastered flying the trainer and get recommendations about how to use flaperons.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:19 PM
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First off you must determine if your trainer is suitable for flaperons. If your trainer has full length strip ailerons that run the whole length of he wing (or at least 90%), then flaperons might me applicable. If you trainer has 'barn door' style ailerons that are located at the outboard ends of the wings then you definitely do NOT want to try flaperons. Flaperons on a plane with outboard ailerons will cause a situation in which your wingtips will stall after your wing roots. Once you're stalled, you'll spin in and you wont be able to recover at low altitudes (like when you're trying to land)
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:41 PM
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E-Pilot will have to diagree with you. It is always better if the Root Stalls before the tips. Thats why you put washout into a wing, so the Root Stalls before the Tip. Tip Stall is the nasty one, that cause models to fall from the sky. I have a MX-2 that I use Flaperons on Scale Ailerons, Not Strip. It really helps tame down the Tip Stall on landing, and I have complete aileron effectiveness all the way to touchdown.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:48 PM
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Rbwindover
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
As ,ong as you have a 'serious' radio with programming ........ then yes it's fairly simple.
Basically it's time to get the radio manual out !! If you don't have one - tell us here what radio / model and we'll try to sort ...
It's a Futaba 6ex series, not 2.4 ghz though, pretty old kit by today's standards. The model I am trying to set up is a seagul innovator which has the full wing ailerons, looks like there are conflicting views on here. As a much better builder than flier I have always been taught that you want the wing root to stall befor the tip, hence why you build washout in.
So can someone give me a simple guide to how it works, if ailerons are plugged into one Channel on the receiver how do you get the flaps knob on the TX activate the ailerons too?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Rbwindover View Post
So can someone give me a simple guide to how it works, if ailerons are plugged into one Channel on the receiver how do you get the flaps knob on the TX activate the ailerons too?
Ah but there's the trick....the ailerons are NOT plugged into one channel .

Flaperons use a separate channel for each servo, in the case of Futaba it's Ch1 (aileron) and Ch6 (flap). You then enable "Flaperon" in W.Mix (Wing MixType) and that's all it takes.

Steve
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by slipstick View Post
Ah but there's the trick....the ailerons are NOT plugged into one channel .

Flaperons use a separate channel for each servo, in the case of Futaba it's Ch1 (aileron) and Ch6 (flap). You then enable "Flaperon" in W.Mix (Wing MixType) and that's all it takes.

Steve
Got it, thanks Steve, I have the TX manual somewhere but at least I know what channels to use on the RX, thanks again.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:39 PM
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as slipstick says - split the servos to separate plug-ins ... usually main servo to Ch 1 and secondary to Ch 6 ..... then you slave Ch 6 to Ch 1 ...

OK - this wash-out / tip stall / slab aileron matter ....... as long as you don't overdo the flap movement - you can use flaps on such - but to be honest a trainer is not really in need of them.

But what you could do .... cut the ailerons so you have 70% outboard as aileron .... the inner 30% as flaps ... but means having 3 - 4 servos now ...
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Johnny View Post
E-Pilot will have to diagree with you. It is always better if the Root Stalls before the tips. Thats why you put washout into a wing, so the Root Stalls before the Tip. Tip Stall is the nasty one, that cause models to fall from the sky. I have a MX-2 that I use Flaperons on Scale Ailerons, Not Strip. It really helps tame down the Tip Stall on landing, and I have complete aileron effectiveness all the way to touchdown.
Yep you are correct - you want the root to stall first.

However I will disagree with you on recommending flaperons on outboard ailerons for exactly the reason you point out.

Using flaperons on barn door ailerons (those located toward the tips) MOVES the center of stall of the wing toward the tips - even with washout - that can be very bad.

Some airplanes are might be OK with the center of stall moved towards the tips - but most are not.

Try it on a P-51 Mustang with a 35in/oz loading and see what you think. Besides the fact the ailerons lose effectiveness and you will likely get a very nasty snap. Any non-trainer type with a decent loading will kill you with flaperons on the barn door type.

Thankfully most planes where it is not an issue - simply don't need flaperons to begin with.

Mike
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Johnny View Post
E-Pilot will have to diagree with you. It is always better if the Root Stalls before the tips. Thats why you put washout into a wing, so the Root Stalls before the Tip. Tip Stall is the nasty one, that cause models to fall from the sky. I have a MX-2 that I use Flaperons on Scale Ailerons, Not Strip. It really helps tame down the Tip Stall on landing, and I have complete aileron effectiveness all the way to touchdown.
Johnny,

If you were using outboard ailerons as flaperons, and using them in the convention way for flaps (i.e. dropping them down).. then that would make tip stall much more likely. You would in effect be adding 'washin' which is the opposite of 'washout'.

Or do you mean that you reflex the flaps upward for landing?


Rbwindover,

In my opinion flaperons are rarely worth it. If the model is reasonably light and slow flying then you don't have any need for flaps anyway, and the comments about reduced aileron effectiveness are spot on in my experience. With any significant downward deflection of the flaperons aileron control becomes ineffective. Also unless you have control surfaces that can travel 45 deg or more they may well run out of down travel when both the down flap and down aileron movement is combined.

If you have a Tx that can do it with programming then by all means give it a try but make sure you try the flap function out at a nice safe altitude and make sure your aileron control is still good.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
In my opinion flaperons are rarely worth it.
100% correct - I too just find it a total waste of time on the vast majority of planes.
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:30 PM
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RBwindover
As others have said be warned that applying flaperon reduces aileron effectiveness in two ways.
First it may reduce the available travel as an aileron.
Second it reduces the wings stall speed (which is why it was used in the first place) and flying at a slower speed reduces aileron effectiveness still further.

Finally consider this situation.
You have flaperons deployed and are flying just below the 'clean' wing stall speed and the plane rolls a bit say to the left.
You put on right stick which lowers the left flaperon to raise the low wing but it also raises the right flaperon. This can raise the stall speed of that wing above the current flying speed so the wing stalls and unless you are very quick the plane rolls over and spins to the right.
You are left thinking "Why did it do that? I didn't do anything!"

If you really must reduce the landing speed much better to use separate flaps.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:50 AM
  #14  
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I reflex them about 10 to 15 degrees, sorry about the confusion. Tame That Stall. It's been a long week of crappy weather, I have a major case of Cabin Fever.
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Old 02-13-2012, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Johnny View Post
E-Pilot will have to diagree with you. It is always better if the Root Stalls before the tips.
Yes, you are quite correct. I didn't word that first post very well at all. rcers, JetPlaneFlyer and guorneng explained it much better. Thanks for keeping me on my toes...
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rcers View Post
100% correct - I too just find it a total waste of time on the vast majority of planes.
I also agree:
Tried flapperons on several different models, including a giant scale model. IMHO, they made landings more difficult, one of the results was the sudden dropping of a wing on landing that did not show up on regular landings.

Also have several models now with true flaps, a 1KW P51, and a near 3KW Giant Big Stick. No comparison between real flaps, and flapperons.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:38 AM
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I have one model on which flaperons are quite effective...help to stop it floating on and on over the strip without noticeably affecting aileron function. Over the years I've had a couple of others like that but also quite a few on which flaperons did nothing helpful at all.

Agreed true flaps are better but need more work and an extra servo. And don't forget that if you retrofit them by cutting away part of the strip ailerons to make flaps then that too will reduce the aileron effectiveness (though not by a huge amount because the bit of aileron near the root doesn't do all that much - simple lever effect)

But flaperons are so easy to implement (it's only enabling a single parameter in the TX ) that I suggest you try them yourself and see if your plane likes them....some do, some don't .

Steve
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:12 PM
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I'd say it depends on the model and flier if you want to add flaperons or not,i must admit though i don't use them hardly at all and i fly warbirds,EDF jets,scratch builds (foam) well all sorts of planes and never really had call for them Yet that is

I will add that your radio is a good make but if you ever think of changing to 2.4GHZ for reasons that speak for them selves you might want to try the Turnigy 9X 9ch radio from Hobbyking as i've seen loads of good reports about that radio,plus it can do all the mixes my radio does and more and it comes in mode1&2 and the price will be hard to beat.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by startazz View Post
I'd say it depends on the model and flier if you want to add flaperons or not,i must admit though i don't use them hardly at all and i fly warbirds,EDF jets,scratch builds (foam) well all sorts of planes and never really had call for them Yet that is

I will add that your radio is a good make but if you ever think of changing to 2.4GHZ for reasons that speak for them selves you might want to try the Turnigy 9X 9ch radio from Hobbyking as i've seen loads of good reports about that radio,plus it can do all the mixes my radio does and more and it comes in mode1&2 and the price will be hard to beat.
The 6EX he has is actually the base model used for many chinese such as the Radiolink EH6 ...

I agree that the 9X is a budget way to go up ... but like anything - not everyones meat. But lets be hinest - they are being seen more and more ... the number that are being sold is testament itself.

Back to Flaps ........... I have and have had models with them - do I use them ? Rarely..... unlike full size planes - we are flying at vastly different wing loading ratios, power levels etc. vs model size, that really negates their need in our world.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:38 PM
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Flaperons cool.
Help keep prop out of dirt.
Fly nice, big fun time.
Derp

Last edited by TriumphScram; 02-13-2012 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by TriumphScram View Post
...Having added only 15% flaperon allows the aircraft to take off in a higher pitch attitude, keeping the prop further from the ground.
Hmmm...In reality flaps have the very opposite effect to what you describe. They in fact allow the plane to fly with the fuselage more level (rather than nose up) because they effectively increase the incidence angle of the wing relative to the fuselage. This is one reason why they are helpful in pull size planes because it means that the nose doesn't come up and block the view from the pilot's seat (not an issue with RC models).

You are probably getting flaps mixed up with leading edge 'slats'.. Slats allow the wing to work at a higher angle of attack without stalling.

Further reading: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...vices/TH17.htm

Steve
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:48 PM
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Derp

Last edited by TriumphScram; 02-13-2012 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:09 PM
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Nope.. flaps do not allow a higher angle of attack (though they do allow a slower flying speed)

Dont take my word for it, take NASA's from the link i posted.. Or here is a graph showing the lift slope of a flapped vs, un-flapped wing.. note that both stall at exactly the same angle of attack: http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...ces/TH17G4.htm
(Also sourced from NASA)


Just to illustrate the point that flaps actually often produce a marked nose down flying stance look at the attached photo of a STOL airliner on final landing approach with flaps fully deployed: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...y/hist082b.htm

Steve
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TriumphScram View Post
Flaperons cool.
Help keep prop out of dirt.
Fly nice, big fun time.
Derp
I'm sticking to this statement.
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Old 02-14-2012, 01:27 AM
  #25  
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Most of the issues people have with flaperons result from the way they are used, I think. I little bit of flaperon - say 1/2 or less - won't hurt anything and will slow the plane down. While they do restrict aileron movement, you really shouldn't deploy them until you no longer need aileron.

The idea in landing is to line up directly in line with the runway and then set a glide slope. That's when you deploy the flaperons. Turning with flaperons isn't a good way to use them. If the plane gets off course in the glide slope, you should correct it with rudder -not aileron - so the flaperons really do act as flaps if they are used properly.

Having said that, very few models really need flaps. If a model is coming down hot, you should be able to give it a quick and temporary nose up to slow it down before continuing on the glide slope - something like punching the brakes on your car briefly.

Flaps are definitely not need for takeoffs with almost all models. Models are overpowered compared to full size aircraft. Most of them will take off within a few feet, let alone worry about running out of runway. My 3D planes will take off from my left hand with their noses pointed straight up in the air. They don't have flaps.
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