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Guillows B-17 Flying Fortress Conversion

Old 12-17-2009, 03:55 PM
  #26  
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Got a little more done and I do mean a little. I only have about 30 min a day tops to play with my models.

Finished cutting out the former notches and tacking the alignment sticks. Not unlike any model you have to take your time and think in 3D, I could have easly glued them on the wrong side (i really did not). Same with the wing rail box, besides gluing the rails on the wrong side you don't have many options when it come to getting them straight and the correct spacing.

I've got started on joining the formers to the keels.

Let me give you an overview of my modeling experiance. In the past year I've built two planes, an MM-J3 and MM P-38 and the last time I built was 31 years ago and I built scores of them so this is bringing back some good memories but I'm still maybe just one notch above a beginer.
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:03 PM
  #27  
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Hey, I just wanted to say that I do enjoy this thread, because it is challenging to do this type of build. I throw in the remarks about foam because it is my favorite build material. Balsa requires an artist's temperment in my humble opinion- dogged determination to make it look good. All that stress! (tissue, dope, water, balsa type that is). You guys are doing a nice job. I hope you can get these B-17s to fly.

Bob
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:51 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Voyager2lcats View Post
Spitfire, no hurting here. I always smile to myself when someone says "balsa flys better!" Where is the proof in that comment? There is none. Now that being said, balsa is great, but foam is SO available in great (read: cheap) quantities that it is foolish not to use it. Back to our regularly scheduled Guillows B-17 thread.

not to start an arrangement, and throw it off topic... but it flys better because it does not get soft like foam does (which also means it lasts long), and its stronger, and to have the same strength, its a lot lighter... and it does not get warped in the air like foam...

also, its repairs better, not as "easy", but its still a better....

and in my own experiences, it has always flown better for me...

thats why it flys better...

but if we continue this, lets do so in another thread? hmm... I just got an idea for a thread.....


SPIT.
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Old 12-17-2009, 09:55 PM
  #29  
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Park

You might have a good point about not being able to see the arm. I was planning to epoxy an arm, probably wood to the wire dropping down from the rudder. Would ahve to verify operation pre-flight and assume all was well. Obviously a PIA to fix if it breaks. It will not take a lot to get me to change my plans. I am planning a steerable tail wheel also, but further forward than the rudder hinge point, located about B12. Need to work out a hinge system there to allow it to swivel. Was planning to tie in a control rod for the tail wheel to a control rod for the rudder so both work off the same servo. Got the idea from the way my ME-109 is set up. Was going to put the arm inside the fuse, but will gave that a second look.

Is the battery for the P38 in the fuse or located elsewhere?

And why is your work area so much neater than mine?
Actually I think I will need to close down for a couple days next week. Having the extended family over for dinner on Christmas and I think my work area is designated as dining area. Oh well... at least I will have to clean up my work board.

Spit and VCat

I don't know which flies better, in my case the planes have been better than the pilot across the board. The only one that has crashed so bad I gave up on it was balsa. Transplanted the motor and electronics from a Seagull XRay into my rebuilt Super Cub. The B17 build is fun in itself, if I can get it to fly well, that is icing on the cake.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:16 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by dumo01 View Post
Park

You might have a good point about not being able to see the arm. I was planning to epoxy an arm, probably wood to the wire dropping down from the rudder. Would ahve to verify operation pre-flight and assume all was well. Obviously a PIA to fix if it breaks. It will not take a lot to get me to change my plans. I am planning a steerable tail wheel also, but further forward than the rudder hinge point, located about B12. Need to work out a hinge system there to allow it to swivel. Was planning to tie in a control rod for the tail wheel to a control rod for the rudder so both work off the same servo. Got the idea from the way my ME-109 is set up. Was going to put the arm inside the fuse, but will gave that a second look.

Is the battery for the P38 in the fuse or located elsewhere?

The batt is a 1320mah 2c 13s thunder power and is a great batt. If it works out I may use it in the B-17.

And why is your work area so much neater than mine?

I only have three planes

Actually I think I will need to close down for a couple days next week. Having the extended family over for dinner on Christmas and I think my work area is designated as dining area. Oh well... at least I will have to clean up my work board.

Spit and VCat

I don't know which flies better, in my case the planes have been better than the pilot across the board. The only one that has crashed so bad I gave up on it was balsa. Transplanted the motor and electronics from a Seagull XRay into my rebuilt Super Cub. The B17 build is fun in itself, if I can get it to fly well, that is icing on the cake.
.........................................
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:58 AM
  #31  
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Got first half of the formers and keels done. I ran into something interesting. I bought my kit used, opened, but not built. When I got to step 5 on the fuselage formers prep. it states " there are eight 3/16"x3/8" blocks that support the wing rails and have to be cut to fit" so I get what I thought were the correct pieces, two 3/16"x3/8"x6". But when I used the 22" piece as a spacer I realized that I may have used the wrong parts on B6 and B7! It will work just fine but I don't think it came with the kit?

Also dumo01, do you have two 3/8"x5/8"x22" sticks? These sticks are big!

Back to the formers, I had to trim an extra 1/16" off the shoulders to get it to mate with the keels. The grandkids toy blocks help to get the formers vertical, then I make a mark on the keel, remove the blocks and glue.

Becareful spacing the spar rails, I can see where this could be a problem.
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Old 12-18-2009, 02:26 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by park View Post
Got first half of the formers and keels done. I ran into something interesting. I bought my kit used, opened, but not built. When I got to step 5 on the fuselage formers prep. it states " there are eight 3/16"x3/8" blocks that support the wing rails and have to be cut to fit" so I get what I thought were the correct pieces, two 3/16"x3/8"x6". But when I used the 22" piece as a spacer I realized that I may have used the wrong parts on B6 and B7! It will work just fine but I don't think it came with the kit?

Also dumo01, do you have two 3/8"x5/8"x22" sticks? These sticks are big!

Back to the formers, I had to trim an extra 1/16" off the shoulders to get it to mate with the keels. The grandkids toy blocks help to get the formers vertical, then I make a mark on the keel, remove the blocks and glue.

Becareful spacing the spar rails, I can see where this could be a problem.
why do those building blocks make me laugh?

SPIT.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:37 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by dumo01 View Post
Park

You might have a good point about not being able to see the arm. I was planning to epoxy an arm, probably wood to the wire dropping down from the rudder. Would ahve to verify operation pre-flight and assume all was well. Obviously a PIA to fix if it breaks. It will not take a lot to get me to change my plans. I am planning a steerable tail wheel also, but further forward than the rudder hinge point, located about B12. Need to work out a hinge system there to allow it to swivel. Was planning to tie in a control rod for the tail wheel to a control rod for the rudder so both work off the same servo. Got the idea from the way my ME-109 is set up. Was going to put the arm inside the fuse, but will gave that a second look.

Is the battery for the P38 in the fuse or located elsewhere?

And why is your work area so much neater than mine?
Actually I think I will need to close down for a couple days next week. Having the extended family over for dinner on Christmas and I think my work area is designated as dining area. Oh well... at least I will have to clean up my work board.

Spit and VCat

I don't know which flies better, in my case the planes have been better than the pilot across the board. The only one that has crashed so bad I gave up on it was balsa. Transplanted the motor and electronics from a Seagull XRay into my rebuilt Super Cub. The B17 build is fun in itself, if I can get it to fly well, that is icing on the cake.
The P-38's batt is in the cockpit.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:44 PM
  #34  
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why do those building blocks make me laugh?

SPIT.

I was looking all over the house for something small and square two 9 volt batt's would work but I only had one, then I saw the 14 month old grandson playing
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Old 12-19-2009, 01:54 PM
  #35  
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Got the form halfs, side keels and spar box completed. When I first looked over the plans I was thinking about not using the alingment stick method for joining the form halfs. That would have been a mistake, it would be very difficult without those sticks.

Question: On the spar box sides B6A & B7A there is a notch at the bottom of these parts that one would assume fits over the bottom keel, but once installed per the plans does not. Does something down the road use those notches?
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Old 12-19-2009, 02:55 PM
  #36  
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Park
Looking good
I did not find a use for that notch either as yet, but maybe something will pop up.
I thought I had replied to your posts from yesterday but looks like my reply did not upload. There are quite a few of the 3/8 x 3/16 but they will get used. I still have one of them and some shorter pieces of those that I used for the wing mount rails. I think the remainder that I have will be needed t for the nacelle mounting rails.

The 3/8 x 5/8 will be used to make the wing leading edges, lot of the wood will be cut/sanded away. I used a table top belt sander to take off most of the wood and then used a Dremel with a sanding ring to do the final shaping.

After seeing your note re: battery placement on the P38 I decided to keep the battery in the fuse but put the ESCs in each nacelle behind the motor. The wire runs to each ESC will not be that long, and makes the install and battery change much more do-able. Also decided to do the rudder control external to the fuse. The control arm for the tail wheel will tie into the rudder servo, but run separately. I used wire to make the fixture for the tail wheel, will pivot in the two short aluminum tubes epoxied to the front of B13

Started to work on the rest of the fuse spars last night. Was surprised to find the 3/3/2 spars are not long enough to reach the whole length of the fuse. In looking at the full size plans I found that any that run full length need to be joined at some point from two pieces ( Plans shown in 3rd picture, the puppy in my herd of 5 got ahold of them somehow, decided they were a great new chew toy, new set on order, but currently challenging).
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:57 PM
  #37  
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So that's what those big sticks are for!


"Started to work on the rest of the fuse spars last night. Was surprised to find the 3/3/2 spars are not long enough to reach the whole length of the fuse. In looking at the full size plans I found that any that run full length need to be joined at some point from two pieces ( Plans shown in 3rd picture, the puppy in my herd of 5 got ahold of them somehow, decided they were a great new chew toy, new set on order, but currently challenging)."

What spars are you refering too?
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Old 12-19-2009, 03:59 PM
  #38  
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"The control arm for the tail wheel will tie into the rudder servo, but run separately. I used wire to make the fixture for the tail wheel, will pivot in the two short aluminum tubes epoxied to the front of B13"

When you get that completed please post some photos.
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:24 PM
  #39  
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This is funny, I'm on fuselage step 11. Cement nose shaping pieces AS, A?, A10 and A11.

I think the parts AS and A? are typos and should be A8 and A9 ?
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:55 AM
  #40  
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Park

Sorry I have not gotten back on your posts, been one of those weekends, should have some time tomorrow.
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Old 12-21-2009, 12:54 PM
  #41  
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My build is going to slow down too. I've ordered two servo's and I need to make the tail wheel wire and support, mount it in the fuselage along with the servo's then put on the fuselage stringers. All three servo's will be in the fuselage. I came up with a tail wheel streering device; I made a small wood block with 1/16" balse plywood edges, drilled a hole in the middle for the wire. The wire coming out of the box inside the fuselage will have an "L" bend that will connect to the rudder push rod. I also reinforced the bottom keel and former B13 where the tail wheel will be located.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:59 PM
  #42  
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Thought I would take a minute to update before I actually spend a little time building.

You must have the newer improved and updated version of the instructions. Mine reference A8, A9, A10 and A11 in step 11, but I have the version from 10 -15 years ago.

The spars i was referring to are in step 13 of the fuselage instructions, but they call them stringers. Either works for me but I still don't see anything long enough to reach the whole length of the fuselage without splicing two pieces togather at some point. In many case I can use the hatch to do the junction as a natural break, but in some cases i think I will need to do some sort of end to end splice.
Pictures of the tail wheel assembly I did. I think we are both doing the same concept, just a difference in how it is being anchored into the rib B13.

Nice job on the P38, glad to hear it is flying well. I am going to look at something from Mountain Models for my next build. By the looks on line and by all accounts I have read they are a very good kit. Good chance something might show up in the next couple days. Your prop issue worries me a little on this build. If the 5 " prop is not big enough we might be able to fit a 6" but no bigger I am pretty sure. Guess it will have to work.

What servos are you using? I thought I remembered seeing somewhere you were going to us a single servo to drive both ailerons? I decided to use separate servos in each wing. I am using the Heads up 3.6 gm in a pocket between the two wing main spars about a third of the way out each aileron. I am hoping they have enough power to do that; the ailerons are really not that big so i think it will be OK and they fit better than the HS 55s I am using for the other servos

Have a good one
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Old 12-23-2009, 03:34 AM
  #43  
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"What servos are you using? I thought I remembered seeing somewhere you were going to us a single servo to drive both ailerons?"

I plan on using the one Heads Up 9g TP SG90 Sub Micro Servo for the ailerons. I got the idea from the MM P-38, steel cable in a plastic tube operates both ailerons. See if you can look at the plans on their site http://www.mountainmodels.com/produc...roducts_id=408

I like your tail wheel, I think it's better than mine because of the shock spring. Mine doesn't have much spring, I'll get a picture up soon.

Thinking about the location of the servo's, should I put them near the center section of the wing or I wonder if this model is nose heavy?
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:04 PM
  #44  
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All the discussion I have seen is that it tends to be tail heavy rather than nose heavy to I am trying to build as much toward the nose as I can. Idealy I am trying to have the battery forward of B5m the receiver between B5 and B6 and the servos between B6 and B7
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:58 AM
  #45  
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Ok,,,,I'm going to follow your lead. I need to get 1/32" wire rod and tubing before moving on.
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:44 PM
  #46  
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Spent a while yesterday working on putting the stringers the length of the fuselage, got the belly done and the nose of the top. I am going to do the top of the fuselage in three sections, nose, hatch and tail from the hatch back. I think if I use a pin and magnet retention system on the hatch it will work well and still have adequate structural support for the tail of the fuse for those tail wheel first landings. After I get the nose and tail stringers in will do the hatch stringers as separate section and then cut only the top spar and three ribs to separate the hatch from the body of the fuse.
Don't think I can get done today before I need to clean up my building area to get ready for having family over tomorrow. I use part of our porch which is also prime dining area for extended family feeds. Hope to get it done by the end of the weekend and will post some pictures.

Hope you and your family have a great Christmas
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:22 PM
  #47  
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This is about all I got done this week. Went by the LHS on my way out of Austin yesterday and got some parts so maybe I'll get a bit more done soon. I got my tail wheel mounted, still thinking of how to connect it to the rudder cable?
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Old 12-29-2009, 01:31 AM
  #48  
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I got an idea to run by you guys,,,,when this model is built as an RC it has a reputation of being a little heavy. What if I put fixed flaps? My gear is going to be fixed and why not fixed half flaps?
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Old 12-30-2009, 02:16 AM
  #49  
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I like your idea on the flaps and think it might make some sense from a modeling standpoint. I am also doing a gears down configuration, but for the moment at least I am going to try without the flaps. I guess it will have to be a short moment. Not one of those things that will be easy to change. Do you have any good references as to what the flaps should look like? I found one drawing that seemed to show a split flap that extended from the aileron to the wing root, maybe 50-75 % bigger than the aileron depth. Not really that good a picture. At that size half flaps will make a huge difference in the aerodynamics, I might think about going one third instead of one half, but then I not sure what the would be half of. Speaking of which, have you given any thought as to what you are going to use for control surface throws? I am not sure what setting to sue other than " That looks like about enough to start with". Will need to talk to some of the other guys in the club that have done this more than myself.

Got the fuse pretty much finished up over the weekend and got the hatch cut in. I need to work out where I am going to place the magnets to secure the hatch and get them in place. Was thinking of using two pins in the front of the hatch and two magnets at the back, but the hatch is too deep to allow the pins to engage and the hatch to swivel into place and seat, so now I am leaning towards using two magnets in front as well.

I think the next major step will be to test fit the wings to the fuse and start getting the wiring system laid out and figure out the servo and battery mounting. I am still trying to decide if I want to try to pull all the wiring after the wing is covered or try to cover the wing with at least the basic wiring in place. Probably the later will be easier to do, the pull holes are not really too large.

Hoping to get in a fair amount of build time this weekend. Our club is supposed to do a "Freeze and Fly" Friday morning. By the sound of the forecast will live up to it's name.
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Old 12-30-2009, 05:10 AM
  #50  
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About the flap idea, I don't know. You would think some flaps would help. I have flown some underpowered overweight aircraft that benefited from some down flaps (with out an engine failure). I have a lot pictures of the flaps if needed.
I have no idea about the control surface throws, I'm just going to go for it.
Nice job on the hatch !! Looks very good. I was able to work on the B-17 today and I must have spent an hour thinking of how I'm going to make my hatch. It's looking like mine might be a smaller type.
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