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Kai's "Shuriken" profile depron jet (now with video)

Old 10-07-2007, 12:44 AM
  #1  
Kai_Shiden
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Default Kai's "Shuriken" profile depron jet (now with video)

For quite a while I've been flying my own profile SU-37 design (last version was Rev5). I've decided to take a departure from it for my next profile jet.

Trying to get all the flight characteristics I want, while keeping the profile scale was challenging, so this one is designed from the ground up for the flight performance parameters that I want.

Wish me luck that it won't crash and burn on it's maiden .

-Kai

Indoor video:
http://www.nwheli.com/PlaneVids/Kai'...10-25-07sm.wmv (30MB, Right click, save-target-as)


Outdoor video:
http://www.nwheli.com/PlaneVids/Kai'...n_10-28-07.wmv (24MB, Right click, save-target-as)


Edit: Plans are now available for download: http://www.nwheli.com/Plans/Shuriken.pdf (full sheet currently, tiles may be available later)
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Last edited by Kai_Shiden; 11-09-2007 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Added video
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:03 AM
  #2  
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Sure hope you made a templet of that because I WANT one. Its got the right shape and look to replace one of my profiles for sure. Best of luck on its maiden flight but I don't think it needs much. Looks very sound !!!
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:04 AM
  #3  
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Looks nice! Good luck on the maiden.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:36 AM
  #4  
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Originally Posted by Kosh View Post
Sure hope you made a templet of that because I WANT one. Its got the right shape and look to replace one of my profiles for sure. Best of luck on its maiden flight but I don't think it needs much. Looks very sound !!!
Thanks for the good luck wishes guys,

Kosh, I really only made one template, the rest is actually all straight lines and measurements scaled up from the test glider (the one template I have is for the tailerons). If it flys well, I can very quickly make templates from it at the field with just some paper (would you believe, I've still not picked up any construction paper to make templates from :o).

The only changes that I might make, are cutting down the tailerons tips a bit if they start to flutter. The verticals are the shape they are to channel prop airflow, and to reduce the chance of the rudder flutter I had at high speeds on the SU (long surfaces that taper a lot will tend to twist more and can cause more flutter, the tall vertical stabs of the SU did that)

-Kai
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Old 10-07-2007, 03:12 AM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by Kai_Shiden View Post
For quite a while I've been flying my own profile SU-37 design (last version was Rev5). I've decided to take a departure from it for my next profile jet.

Trying to get all the flight characteristics I want, while keep the profile scale was challenging, so this one is designed from the ground up for the flight performance parameters that I want.

Wish me luck that it won't crash and burn on it's maiden .

-Kai
Beautiful Jet Kai I Like it, you wont crash and burn, I have seen you fly, your better than me Take Care, Chellie

BTW please post some plans
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Old 10-09-2007, 01:24 AM
  #6  
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Default No crash, no burn....

However fast, I'm thinking no burn. The fumes would be toxic, so I'm going to have to ask that you keep your VNE down to less than 65 knots.


Originally Posted by Kai_Shiden View Post

Wish me luck that it won't crash and burn on it's maiden .

-Kai
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:54 PM
  #7  
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Very cool Kai, I love the lines and I am very happy that you decided not to copy a conventional jet plan. I like the custom stuff.

Dave
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Old 10-09-2007, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Codesource View Post
I'm going to have to ask that you keep your VNE down to less than 65 knots.
Ok, you have to fill me in, how the heck did you know that I was shooting for breaking 70mph top speed (I figure if the Aerocat can make 70mph, a shorter wingspan plane should be able to as well).

So, you mentioned on the phone that you were going to cut out a fast plane... any chance for a race this weekend . I'm only going to be running a LS ParkJet on 3s with an APC 5.25x6.25 prop (starting with a 5x5 first though).

Kosh or Codesource, do either of you know if R/C Hobbies in Woodinville carries 6x4 or 6x5.5 APC props?

-Kai
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:25 PM
  #9  
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They carry both props in stock, I was just there a few days ago and left you plenty.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:16 AM
  #10  
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WooHoo!!!

The test flights went great today, results are that it's very neutral at all speeds and orientations, but really needs some rudders to give it smoother coordinated turns.

I was lazy and didn't bother cutting and hooking up the rudders for today, but yet, even without the rudders it will already almost knife edge . I could cut down the nose a bit to get it to work as an elevon only plane (basically cutting surface area from the vertical height of the nose would change the knife edge CL aft a bit and make the tail follow the nose "weathervaneing" in yaw), but I would rather have full controls and keep it as neutral in all axis as it is now.

I was kind of blown away that it was easily able to do rolling circles and slow rolls even without the rudders . It even slows down very nicely, but could use rudders to give it more control at slow speeds.

All is not perfect though, as I think I might have one of the vertical stabs slightly out of alignment , it turns easier to the right than to the left. But adding in the rudders will also solve that. Basically in slow left bank turns right now the tail tends to slide down into the turn (and it just flys on dog walking sideways until you throttle up enough to pull it back in line, did I mention that it's almost rediculously neutral , more like a 3D plane than a foamy jet ).

I'm going to add the rudders to it tonight and hopefully get some video of it in flight soon, I'm confident that it's going to blow away my old SU-37 in all flight regimes, especially when it comes to knife edge, I could never get my SU-37 to knife edge at low speeds, where I'm confident this one will be able to knife edge at 1/2 throttle.

Today went so well, that I even managed to find a perfectly neutral CG that allows it to fly inverted without any elevator , and without anything other than battery placement.

-Kai
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:23 AM
  #11  
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After seeing this thing in action today I simply must have one. It just did everything VERY well and looked great in the air. Heres a few action shots I clicked off today. Nice work Kai !!!

Kosh
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:49 PM
  #12  
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OK, So where the templates (;

Congrats.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:53 PM
  #13  
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Templates, bah. Kai, when are you gonna start mass producing them for us?

Looks awesome!
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Old 10-15-2007, 04:48 AM
  #14  
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I made it out the the park late today (didn't add the rudders until this morning).

The flight report is, that the rudders were exactly what it needed, now even with a perfectly neutral CG, it glides excellent (it does require some rudder corrections in glide, but it only slowly yaws out on it's own, so it's very easy to maintain yaw stability). At the field I wanted just a little bit more pitch stability, so I added about 3/4" of depron to the back edges of the tailerons, and to achieve a smigeon more yaw stability I also shaved the nose height down by about 1/16th" top and bottom. While at the field I also sanded all the leading edges round.

With those changes, it now knife edges like a 3D foamy, it only takes 1/2 throttle and a hair of rudder to maintain knife edge level flight (and can even do knife edge harrier ). Rolling circles are painless and easy with just adding some elevator timing in the rolls. Glide requires the mentioned yaw corrections and a slight amount of forward pressure on the elevator (not even so much as to feel the stick move ). It can do elevator falls, tumbles, flat spins, snap rolls, flat turns, harriers, and any other maneuver I can throw at it (ie, I myself haven't mastered rolling harrier circles, and just like any other depron foamy, it doesn't have enough mass/inertia to pull off a lomcevak ), and the great part is, it does them all equally well inverted as it does upright .

Even with the CG set dead neutral (not nose heavy or tail heavy), it really locks in and tracks true at high speeds. I was pretty amazed that it's only "bad" habit is a slight tendency to drift in yaw at low speeds, it's speed range is incredible, I even pulled off some hovers with it today. It does have a tendency to wing rock slightly at over 60deg high alpha (which does make hovers harder to maintain than with a 3D foamy), but it takes some pretty extreme angles before that tendency shows up. With the LittleScreamers ParkJet, TP1320, and PHX-25, it will fly level at 1/4 throttle, and very visibly accelerates when the throttle is opened up, it has unlimited vertical and hovers around 60% throttle, and has very good top speed (faster than my SU, but by how much, I don't really know, I would guess that it does around 60mph, not quite as much as I wanted, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the "fun to fly" factor I get out of it right now by trying out other power systems).

As to posting the design online, I used to make plans, but found them to be a royal pain in the neck to make to my own satisfaction (tiled and full sheet, plus all the print testing to make sure they scale right, and optimizing foam cutting layout, on my SU-37 plans doing all of that took hours upon hours).

I'm making up templates now that the shape is all refined, and will be lending them to local flyers who want a Shuriken (that's what I've decided to name it, a Hira-Shuriken is a throwing star, and when it pulls into vertical it looks like a 5 point star). For those who want one online, I'm going to take pictures of it from all angles and overlay the measurements.

With any luck, someone else will like the design enough to draw up plans, personally, I have so many projects in the fire that I don't have the time to spare (that's what comes with flying both planes and helis, and being available to help people with their helis, spare time to do all the projects I want comes at a premium ).

-Kai

P.S. Extending the tailerons back that 3/4" also removed any flutter they had, I can now do a full throttle dive and it just runs dead true (the ground comes up scary fast though ).

Last edited by Kai_Shiden; 10-15-2007 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kai_Shiden View Post
I made it out the the park late today (didn't add the rudders until this morning).

The flight report is, that the rudders were exactly what it needed, now even with a perfectly neutral CG, it glides excellent (it does require some rudder corrections in glide, but it only slowly yaws out on it's own, so it's very easy to maintain yaw stability). At the field I wanted just a little bit more pitch stability, so I added about 3/4" of depron to the back edges of the tailerons, and to achieve a smigeon more yaw stability I also shaved the nose height down by about 1/16th" top and bottom. While at the field I also sanded all the leading edges round.

With those changes, it now knife edges like a 3D foamy, it only takes 1/2 throttle and a hair of rudder to maintain knife edge level flight (and can even do knife edge harrier ). Rolling circles are painless and easy with just adding some elevator timing in the rolls. Glide requires the mentioned yaw corrections and a slight amount of forward pressure on the elevator (not even so much as to feel the stick move ). It can do elevator falls, tumbles, flat spins, snap rolls, flat turns, harriers, and any other maneuver I can throw at it (ie, I myself haven't mastered rolling harrier circles, and just like any other depron foamy, it doesn't have enough mass/inertia to pull off a lomcevak ), and the great part is, it does them all equally well inverted as it does upright .

Even with the CG set dead neutral (not nose heavy or tail heavy), it really locks in and tracks true at high speeds. I was pretty amazed that it's only "bad" habit is a slight tendency to drift in yaw at low speeds, it's speed range is incredible, I even pulled off some hovers with it today. It does have a tendency to wing rock slightly at over 60deg high alpha (which does make hovers harder to maintain than with a 3D foamy), but it takes some pretty extreme angles before that tendency shows up. With the LittleScreamers ParkJet, TP1320, and PHX-25, it will fly level at 1/4 throttle, and very visibly accelerates when the throttle is opened up, it has unlimited vertical and hovers around 60% throttle, and has very good top speed (faster than my SU, but by how much, I don't really know, I would guess that it does around 60mph, not quite as much as I wanted, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the "fun to fly" factor I get out of it right now by trying out other power systems).

As to posting the design online, I used to make plans, but found them to be a royal pain in the neck to make to my own satisfaction (tiled and full sheet, plus all the print testing to make sure they scale right, and optimizing foam cutting layout, on my SU-37 plans doing all of that took hours upon hours).

I'm making up templates now that the shape is all refined, and will be lending them to local flyers who want a Shuriken (that's what I've decided to name it, a Hira-Shuriken is a throwing star, and when it pulls into vertical it looks like a 5 point star). For those who want one online, I'm going to take pictures of it from all angles and overlay the measurements.

With any luck, someone else will like the design enough to draw up plans, personally, I have so many projects in the fire that I don't have the time to spare (that's what comes with flying both planes and helis, and being available to help people with their helis, spare time to do all the projects I want comes at a premium ).

-Kai

P.S. Extending the tailerons back that 3/4" also removed any flutter they had, I can now do a full throttle dive and it just runs dead true (the ground comes up scary fast though ).
Great Job Kai, Super nice design, You and Kosh make some Very nice planes, kee up the great Work, Chellie
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:28 AM
  #16  
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Great design Kai...
We all want you to build us one... should we send you our addresses? Chellie's buyin'..
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Old 10-15-2007, 12:11 PM
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I have to add this to my have-to-build-plane list. Looking forward to the drawings.

iMflyer
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Old 10-15-2007, 04:03 PM
  #18  
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Since we didn't take any video of the Shuriken this weekend, here's some videos of the SU-37 Rev5 and Rev3 that preceeded it . Now that the Shuriken is all tuned up, I need to splash some color on this week for easier video orientation (I hardly ever paint my foamies, as you'll see in the videos).

Poor Kosh, in this video I really gave his plane tracking skills a workout (we were facing towards the sun behind the clouds because the other side was occupied with flyers). My piloting has improved considerably since way back in April when this vid was taken:


This video is even older, back from December (but has both my Rev5, and a fellow flyer's 28" Rev3):


And finally, here is a vid of my friend Shawn's SU-37 Rev3 (I loaned him an airframe to trace):


The Shuriken blows away the performance of the SU in all parameters except absolute roll rate and flat spins (the SU with it's wide aileron tips and tall rudders edges out the Shuriken in those two regimes).

In general it's nearly as radical as the SU, but much more stable, lower drag, lower wing loading (so it has both faster max airspeed, and lower stall speed ), it has a faster flip rate and very low yaw->roll coupling with rudder usage (which is why it knife edges so well).

It also has very low roll->pitch coupling in knife edge (most planes in knife edge tend to pull towards the belly, this one is pretty neutral because of the rudder hinge angles and short height verticals).

-Kai
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Old 10-18-2007, 02:36 AM
  #19  
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Default Nice job this weekend Kai......

The Shuriken flies very true and the speed range was impressive!

As for the plans, once I get the templates from Kosh, I'll turn them into a PDF for you (i'll work with you on the embelishments...). I'll digitally sign the file and you can do what you will with it.

-Codesource
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:45 PM
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Thanks Codesource,

If you don't mind waiting a bit, I should be able to save you some effort in the PDF conversion/embelishments... My buddy superdave has offered to draw up the pieces in CAD once I get him pictures with the parts dimensions.

-Kai

P.S. Had Tacoma_flyer over last night and we got his BCPP flying decent in between rain showers.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:00 AM
  #21  
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Default Picture Crazy!!!!

I figure I would post all the pics I took for overlaying measurements onto. Unfortunately, I just realized that my new laptop doesn't have any image editing software on it (so no measurement details tonight ).

I need to get some construction paper, I'm probably just going to make up the templates and draw the measurements onto them with wide sharpie so that they show up well in pics before setting them loose to do the local rounds.

-Kai
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Old 10-24-2007, 04:16 AM
  #22  
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Great pics, I wondered what I was going to take the parts from to make this plane but I have plenty of spare parts after today. I tested the Lnyx and it turned out to be nose resulting in a spectacular crash that destroyed the plane and spread foam over a large area. I guess its beats throwing rocks at like the last one though.

The other homemade foamy never stood a chance as it was grossly underpowered with 4 EDF units and although not totaled had enough damage to throw it in the Siroc pile. The plus side is I now have everything to build a Shuriken.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:05 AM
  #23  
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I have some errands to run down in SouthCenter after work tomorrow, so I'll drop in Michaels and finally pick up some construction paper and make some templates tomorrow night.

Do you want the templates to be half of the wing/deck (you know, flip and trace), or to be full single trace?

This thursday is an indoor session so my Shuriken might be a little beat up for this weekend . I'm going to try not to fly it too wild in there, but I am concerned that I may get carried away with the throttle, hehe (I used to do full speed circuits of the hangar with the SU, so there will really be some severe temptation to "attempt" to do the same thing with the much faster Shuriken ).

-Kai
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:37 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Kai_Shiden View Post
Do you want the templates to be half of the wing/deck (you know, flip and trace), or to be full single trace?

-Kai
For me it wouldn't matter but this will be a worthy PDF download at some point I have to think. I leave it to your judgment on what works best for that setup. John I'm sure wants one also so he may really get the templet first and do a few test cuts for us.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:53 AM
  #25  
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I think I'll go full single trace template for the main deck/wing, it will make drawing the dimensions on it easier to have them be "photogenic" (more space to not have the dimension markings overlap as much, so they can come out clearer for people to duplicate).

Hopefully I'll be able to get some of the guys at indoor to operate my camera(s). I really want to get some video of it screaming around the hangar (I never got around to getting video of my SU in there, I thought that a foamy jet zipping around the room at >40mph was pretty impressive ).

-Kai
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Quick Reply: Kai's "Shuriken" profile depron jet (now with video)


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