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B-47 8.77th (1:8.7669) Scale, Boeing Stratojet Component Assembly

Old 07-19-2013, 05:18 AM
  #51  
Flite-Metal
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Default Project Preamble: Safety

Thanks for supporting this safety warning:

Project Preamble: Please read and determine for yourself how the following applies to you, the reader:

Any and all persons reading this discussion must come to their own determination of the safety and wisdom of
emulating or replicating any and all aspects of what is described within this discussion.

This includes, but is not limited to your own decision on the safety of and whether you should be involved in this
or these activities and any processes or use of equipment related to recreating what is, or has been discussed
here-in by topic author and or subscribers to WattFlyer, the host of this discussion.

Neither the author of this topic nor WattFlyer.com are responsible for proper or improper use of, nor the correct
or incorrectness of any process activity undertaken by any one or all readers of this construction thread.

*As in all modeling activities, reader beware of the personal skills to either properly or improperly apply the
principals described here-in. It is impossible to declare whether this activity is or is not proper for readers of
this discussion. The reader is solely responsible for their utilization of this information.

For your safety, consult an electrical engineer to explain the dangers associated with a model powered with
voltages equal or greater than those utilized in this EDF Boeing B-47 project.

50+ volts DC must be respected and it has to be managed with care. While arming will be traditional with a
heavy duty plug you need to be aware of the dangers with high voltage in these projects.

Be careful out there boys and girls... ;^)



Thanks Don for endorsing our concerns and warning.



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Old 08-18-2013, 09:03 PM
  #52  
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This B-47 project is looking good.
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:22 PM
  #53  
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Default Milling @ Round Rock, TX TechShop

Originally Posted by Shanksow View Post
This B-47 project is looking good.


Thanks, we're treading water to mill with a pair of ShopBot Alpha mills in Round Rock at TechShop. We're
working export formats to get our slicing and dicing completed.



One would imagine with this much effort these things would be a heck of a lot smoother flowing than they
are. As we cross a new threashold it starts all over again. Its not for a lack of talent I am thankful for
all the assistance we have been fortunate to receive.

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Old 08-23-2013, 06:07 PM
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Default Out Of The "Blue".

An example of how our CNC milling software Vectric Cut3D permits material definition, tool, spacial
definitions, rough and detail mill pathing. We face issues caused by the surfaces being the only thing
that was drawn. There is no interior within the shapes. There is no solid geometry and therefore no
X, Y, Z coordinates "within" the shape of surfaces. You can not slice and mill hollow elements.



Note:

Green arrow to right of gantry is the "permitted" depth of "Z" axis.

Why?:

That axis is shown as smallest/shortest line/travel because total travel distance is composed of length
of milling tool, thickness of to-be-milled material (An amount above & below to-be-milled shape), and
length/depth of the spindle/router collet. Your maximum depth of milling per pass of the mill is sum of
the above vertical elements.

We find ourselves high-jacked and handicapped by software...again. Robert at Ashlar-Vellum software
in Austin is working with Sam and I to resolve the issue. We should have this resolved by Christmas. I
have tried to avoid this all along the way, but it persists in raising its ugly head.





Because there is an internal cylinder when all is converted to a solid, unless the cylinder or its "opening"
is closed off, the cylinder renders as a solid outside the desired to be milled shapes. Slicing cross section
yields the mill path which fits the deck height or Z axis cut depth...the distance we can cut before head
of the spindle or router motor contacts the foam surface.

1.5000" Z axis mill cut.




3.0000" Z axis mill cut.

3" Z axis mill cut path. Because the Dow High Load 60 Styrofoam is only available in 3" blank Z axis we
are not cutting greater than 3" at a time. Until we can test mill with a successful support for 3" we can
only assume a 1.5" cut depth is proper. This depends on the real world clearance of the spindle head
above the blank...and...



Left to right 3" mill path, rough cut result, on the right is a different perspective, the nacelle bottom 180
degrees out from the other two perspectives. Note: Center rise is the retract well fillet tail end. The color
I chose for the rendering below shows off the fluted angles very well.



I can imagine you sitting there thinking that's fabulously perfect... Thanks but the truth is we must alter
the file composition to correct for the CAD file being a surface file without solids. We think we found the
correct process to correct this issue. It would appear simply clicking "fill to a solid" in the Ashlar-Vellum
solid tools will correct this issue. We shall find out shortly...

A sacrificial base of MDF sits beneath to-be-milled Styrofoam blank to prevent mill tool from contacting
mill bed. Application of double faced tape typically permits firm adhesion to sacrifical MDF with minimum
increase in Z axis. Patience, ah patience...



To eliminate the cylinder referenced above, it is necessary to split the shape into logical sections, all of
which are milled from narrowest to widest dim along the Z axis or what would normally be viewed as
vertical of these shapes.



Each different color represents an individual piece of foam to be milled. To mill properly you have to mill
down and outward across the shape or an undercut will occur and you can not reach in to mill concave
surface. Each individual color section is reattached to form the desired part. Each section is comprised of
multiple 1.5" thick slices milled and 3M 77 contact glued to create the desired shape.

There are 16 individual sections to "each" inboard and outboard nacelle. Each is sliced/divided by 1.5"
to determine number of slices per section. Below I reference a cube (imagine its Styrofoam) composed
of individual cubes "containing" the model to be released from within...



Why? Simply stated...distance between the contact point on the mill and the motor (spindle or router)
determines how close you can get to the surface of the foam to remove it to achieve desired shape.

This plus the concave shape determine how close you can mill, per section of the overall shape.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:33 PM
  #55  
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No questions? I guess I need to make a list of our's and let you answer them...

OK, here's one...Why?

No, to cross the road is not the answer

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Old 08-25-2013, 11:33 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
No questions? I guess I need to make a list of our's and let you answer them...
you've explained the milling process quite well, so no questions from this corner just yet. Doing a great job there Ed; very impressive in its detail and execution
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:19 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by pattern14 View Post
you've explained the milling process quite well, so no questions from this corner just yet. Doing a great job there Ed; very impressive in its detail and execution
Be careful how you use that word....gulp! I have tried to stay on track though we've had our share
of stalls. This is not exact science. Because something worked for one project does not mean it will for
another. Unless you are milling your own project, you have no way of knowing what editors the miller is
using to get it to mill. That has had us stalled for a month. At least we are learning what does not work
so it can be avoided.

Everyone's been very kind to assist us along our trek. Its amazing the degree of Ashlar-Vellum software
support and of course Dick Reynolds in Virginia who's B-47 fuselage was milled by a custom yacht/ship
designer/builder from his surface drawings.

##I have a photo of Dick with the gentleman who milled his fuselage which I will share when Dick says its ok to do so.##

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Old 09-24-2013, 07:33 PM
  #58  
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Default Wind In Our Face....Relief

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Old 09-24-2013, 07:44 PM
  #59  
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Default Upper Office Tub

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Old 11-08-2013, 02:30 PM
  #60  
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Default All Too Quickly

A quick hello before the Thanksgiving Holiday...

We near a time when family and friends come together to share memories and the wealth of knowledge acquired as
a modeler with our fellow modelers. Please don't fail your children by not introducing them to your building board and
your transmitter.

It matters not that they only try to build or work in the shop with you once...or fly a glider or an old timer enjoying
every moment of the event...with you...only once! Second times and repeats all begin with the first time!

Before the opportunity is crowded with another computer game, or those teenage Holiday Parties, do yourself a favor...
look up from your work bench and find out where your children are...invite them to share this great hobby with you

It goes by too quickly guys...

Happy Holidays....They are upon us once again!
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:16 AM
  #61  
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Slicing will permit the above component parts to be created though they may be taller or longer than your CNC mill.
In our case we are fortunate our mill is deep enough to accomodate our XYZ dims, though in reality to mill it concave
areas it is best to mill it in thinner vertical sections and glue them together to form required part.



If you have Cut3D experience Sam and I would like to speak to you to accelerate our learning curve. People, this is
basically the heart and soul of the next generation of scale modeling. We drilled down through multiple software to
try to understand the "differences" between each. In the end, the differences delt more with the final finish of part
surfaces than it did process with one or two control element differences in Cut3D's functional favor.

At first thought, that may seem to be very important to you. Actually it has more to do with smoothness at what $
amount. Our designs have balsa laminated surfaces...period. This is for sake of greater tension and compression at a
lower mass number. You may have just done a double take reading that. Yes I am saying our balsa laminated models
are lighter weight with greater tension/compression than a glass and foam alone structure (excluding infusion method).

$ for $ we believe this method provides the greatest return on a minimum investment in CNC scale modeling. We are
no different than you...well maybe Sam and I are more stubborn than you. We failed to give up on this over the last
four years. Shortly, we will have a method to reduce something like the B-47 project to less than 6 months after you
gather documentation....yes, scratch build giant/monster scale models in less than 6 months.

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Old 11-23-2013, 03:22 AM
  #62  
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Default How We Got Where We Are...

How did we get here? I suppose this would be the 9 steps to easy CNC milling models.

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Old 11-23-2013, 03:00 PM
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Facinating. A long way from the old punch card mylar tape days. Way back when I used to program 5 axis horizontal machining centers. Contour milling. Lot's of number crunching with a Dec PDP-11. Yikes. To do what you're doing on a 3 axis milling machine is truly remarkable. Auto-Cad ? are you kidding? Back in the 70's I couldn't spell Auto-cad.

Just wondering how much easier it might be generating some of these shapes with 3D printing to obtain net shape versus stock removal?
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Old 11-23-2013, 04:00 PM
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Ah, a fellow Texan...

We have an Up3D printer which was purchased last year for detail components, not whole airframe finished parts. Finished
parts with the printer or for that matter any printer will result in one thing....WEIGHT. They are for details only.

Milled from Styrofoam Hi-Load 60 we achieve a smooth base onto which to laminate and glass. AUW is extremely important
when designing a scale model. The printer is for printing ABS plastic components like windshield wipers, faux details for
inserting in wheels, down strut components, gear leg sheaths, windshields, recessed hatch releases, cockpit components
including instrument faces, seats, switches, throttle quadrant parts, steering yoke, ejection frame details, etc.
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Old 11-25-2013, 04:40 PM
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Default CNC Cutting Step Two:


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Old 11-25-2013, 05:11 PM
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Default Step 3


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Old 11-25-2013, 05:34 PM
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Default Step Four


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Old 11-25-2013, 05:48 PM
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Default Step 5 (with multiple pathways)




Question: Why is it convenient to have a 45/130 degree cutting path-way?
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Old 11-25-2013, 06:02 PM
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Default Step Six


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Old 11-25-2013, 06:15 PM
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Default Step 7


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Old 11-25-2013, 06:30 PM
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Default Step 8:


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Old 11-25-2013, 06:46 PM
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Default Final Step....Step 9


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Old 11-25-2013, 06:58 PM
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Default Graphics File Import & Export...

3D CAD and Graphics Design software packages will typically include standard options for saving 3D models
in at least one of the file formats supported by Cut3D.

Commonly used design software products:
Rhino3D
3D Studio
AutoCAD
Bobcad
ProEngineer
Solid Works
SolidEdge
Silo

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Old 12-05-2013, 02:05 AM
  #74  
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To put the above software to work you need a CNC mill. For all the noise generated in this thread about ShopBot's table top
you'd think that was what we were buying. Last year Sam found we had someone right here in Houston who manufactured a
mill kit designed to do precisely what we're doing...plus non-ferrus metals if desired... He purchased it on Tuesday.




The Black Toe mill has a 5.25" Z axis and an X-Y of 24" x 48" vs. the ShopBot with a 24"X x 18" Y x 2.20 Z. At about half the
price of the ShopBot Tabletop's $4,995.

Both are using Porter-Cable 800 series routers vs spindles.

We have an enclosed mill waste recovery system comprised of large volume shop waste vacuum collector and waste gate
built into the mill head surround with a skirt to prevent waste kickout during milling.



The exhaust hose attaches to the mill head unit. With the fan blade on shaft of the 800 series Cable-Porter designed to
keep waste from entering the router the waste gate surround will direct all mill waste into the air stream of vacuum
hose.



Sam has already assembled the torque box base with storage beneath it. Knowing it would be best to make the mill
movable he
ordered retractable wheels to provide a much easier move when it occurs.






To answer that yet to be asked question....Yes Cut3D works perfectly with our Black Toe.

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Old 12-05-2013, 08:10 AM
  #75  
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Looking very professional there.....Do you have plans for any commercial ventures with this sort of layout?
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