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FAA press release on new regulations (taxes) for all of us.

Old 12-16-2015, 03:33 PM
  #101  
Fishbonez
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
A good buddy of mine is really upset over this and threatening to quit the hobby all together and he is blaming the AMA for some reason I don't understand.
If I were a gambling man Id say it was because with all the money he has invested with the AMA. Once the AMA really got tested and I mean really tested by the govt. It failed miserably. The AMA admitted to be told by the Govt. essentially to "Shut up and color." I think your friend is right the AMA has to take some of the blame.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:00 PM
  #102  
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As a club officer I am concerned that some folks will say why should I have to join the AMA when we are registered with the AMA now.with homeowners being,the primary insurance anyway the AMA insurance was of little to no use anyway.

So with FAA registration and proof of insurance will that suffice and forego the need for AMA membership?

We have some big questions to answer soon.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:09 PM
  #103  
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I wonder what the fee will be 3 years from now. FAA will probably add a new
Dept.
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Old 12-16-2015, 04:45 PM
  #104  
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Seems to me that the FAA "ruling" is contrary to the federal law passed by Congress and should be challenged ASAP in Federal Court - by the AMA - at least asking for an injunction preventing implementation.

This should be followed by the Congress opening hearing(s) into the FAA and it's runaway management in defiance of Federal Law. The FAA needs to get an understanding of the structure of the United States Constitution and the bodies that can actual create and pass legislation.

I have said it before and will repeat it here now - this smacks of McCarthyism - using a broad brush to paint innocent people as criminals or terrorists through association and implied guilt.

Planes, helicopters, quads, etc., etc., are not being required to be registered, people are. It is already conceded that only law abiding citizens will comply with this ruling, The people wishing to do harm and cause mayhem will not, so what exactly is the point? Is the FAA creating a list of the law abiding citizens so that as incidents caused by criminals rise they can then begin to advocate confiscation and prosecution based upon their "list"? What else would they need a "list"? Has any person or group of people been prosecuted (successfully - LOL) under any FAA statute to date? Then why, since there are currently so many laws on the books already, do we (the public) need FAA intervention for prosecution of the criminals? Catch them, prosecute them and fine them - THEN - if that does not bring the stupidity under control, THEN create new rulings and petition Congress for new laws.

We have a wonderful country and we normally have a pretty decent system of government that creates, enacts and enforces our laws. But lately it seems some of the non-elected officials in this country have decided to bypass the constitution and begin to act as though they are empowered through a dictatorship to enact rules, regulations and laws governing the citizens without having to answer to anyone or comply with the law themselves. The FAA didn't like the law that the US Congress enacted - so they are just going to ignore it and do what they want to do creating their own rulings to circumvent the constitutional rights of the citizens of this country.

This is fundamentally wrong.

If Congressmen and Senators are not angered by this - then I wonder why they were elected - and I wonder how they hope to get re-elected. I would add - this is exactly how democracy begins to erode, through small things that only matter to a few and then it later becomes larger and larger until it effects everyone. As far as I am concerned this is an issue that is far larger than a few modelers and some toys.



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Old 12-16-2015, 05:02 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by quorneng View Post
Whilst living in the UK I am not directly involved but surely the fact that each pilot has to register is the first step to creating a national licence to fly RC planes. In reality it has little to do with nullifying a terrorist threat.

The other interesting part is that in effect the previous 'exemption' for small model planes has simply been revoked so everything now falls under the existing FAA legislation.

The CAA in the UK that has similar national powers covering the civil use of all airspace and could follow suit if they chose.
So, the present accelerated "interim" legislation presented to us today, was not influenced in some manner by the recent local "terrorist" event that left behind an RC vehicle with pipe bombs attached (that was not detonated) and a TX controller found in the culprits vehicle after the fire storm.......?

Consider this.........all this chatter here about the AMA being shoved around like a rag doll by the FAA and not having much input or influence related to the current set of "rules" presently being implemented, shows just how much (or) little many RCer's understand about the real function of the AMA.

The AMA is and has been a club .....! It is not a government agency or civil service extension of any judicial process. It's by-laws and influence are recognized by the governing authorities as a tool to control the operation of (by law abiding enthusiasts) "recreational" facilities, members and their "toys".......and has been instrumental in the registration of such for many years.
Thus, their input in the previous and current "interim" legislation has been instrumental in defining and organizing the use of commercial UAV. No other public organization, related to recreational RC, has it's track record or influence and the governing authorities are not so stupid as to not consider their input and use their's, (an) existing method, to track and record information taken to a higher level of authority.

God forbid, the successful deployment of one of these "armed" toys is ever used in the commission of a "terrorist" act like we just experienced in San Bernardino,. If one believes the current government intervention (be it with many questions and implementation pit-falls) is just a way to make money and take our freedoms away.........you're either living under a rock or under some rainbow stuffed with pots of gold.........!

The protection and safety of the recreation hobby is a micro spot on the radar........the bigger issue is the protection and safety of the populous........of which has been shown and proven to be threatened by a handful of "so-called" RC enthusiasts with no civil conscience, disregard for privacy and human life......just like those who commit "terrorist" acts of violence.

Our Government, which like it or not, as far as I can tell, is still appointed by it's citizens (with all of it's faults), must step in and implement some means of oversight and control.........why is it a surprise now, that since our homeland security has been compromised again, that a device that can (could) be purchased by anyone without question, that also has the ability to infiltrate airspace, privacy and cause mayhem by anyone with the means to operate, now considered enough threat to be cataloged and registered........?.........Are you one of those that would rather wait for a device like that (and it's operators) to be used in a violent act before something is done to at least track the device and it's owner/operator........?

It's no secret that evil intentions and acts will always circumvent good deeds and common sense. The bad guys have proven that rule/laws have no boundaries...........thanks to them and the other class of idiots, control must be implemented and enforcement deployed that has teeth. The first step with any enforcement policy is to account for the inventory take names and numbers, study and understand the opposition and develop a method to intervene and circumvent any threat............the current legislation is only the first step.........if an RC vehicle is ever used, in this country in a terrorist attack, what we now see in front of us as an inconvenience and invasion of privacy will no doubt be much more painful and intrusive in the name of "recreational" sport...........!
,

Last edited by pizzano; 12-16-2015 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:02 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by firemanbill View Post
So with FAA registration and proof of insurance will that suffice and forego the need for AMA membership?

We have some big questions to answer soon.
I don't think this will change anything. If your club or land owner requires you to be an AMA member you will still need to comply. You are not getting anything from the FAA with this registration that will replace the AMA insurance.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:03 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
If I were a gambling man Id say it was because with all the money he has invested with the AMA. Once the AMA really got tested and I mean really tested by the govt. It failed miserably. The AMA admitted to be told by the Govt. essentially to "Shut up and color." I think your friend is right the AMA has to take some of the blame.
Well to be fair, the AMA is only 800,000(+/-) out of 320,000,000 Americans. That's what, 2.5% of their salary? As many have pointed out, they're bureaucrats, how do you think they would respond?
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:10 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Turner View Post
I don't think this will change anything. If your club or land owner requires you to be an AMA member you will still need to comply. You are not getting anything from the FAA with this registration that will replace the AMA insurance.
Agreed, but I can see this argument being made.
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:17 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by firemanbill View Post
As a club officer I am concerned that some folks will say why should I have to join the AMA when we are registered with the AMA now.with homeowners being,the primary insurance anyway the AMA insurance was of little to no use anyway.

So with FAA registration and proof of insurance will that suffice and forego the need for AMA membership?

We have some big questions to answer soon.
I can only assume that USA has similar Insurance style to UK.

Home Owners Insurance only covers loss of items and results of such. It is based on Home Contents and common items you may use away from home.

SMAE Insurance, now BMFA based (similar surely to AMA) covered third party liability in event model damaged property or hit someone.

Its funny .. when I was a SMAE rep in UK - this subject was so commonly misunderstood - it was a regular thing to answer at meetings.

So why would this affect AMA membership ?

Nigel
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Old 12-16-2015, 05:55 PM
  #110  
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Gentlemen I have read with much interest all the reply's ,or most of them to our situation with the FAA. One thing that has not been addressed is the amount of outlay the AMA has spent to fight the good fight. It appears that we (AMA members) have been placed on the short end of the stick as far as the FAA is concerned. Why don't we suck it up and asked the AMA not to pour more of OUR money into what appears to be a losing battle ? I may be wrong but I think the AMA spent nearly a million dollars on Lawyers and litigation fees. So Let us all petition the AMA not to spend any more of OUR money lest we face another AMA yearly dues increase in the future. thank you all for your time. Respectfully Submitted .
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Old 12-16-2015, 06:20 PM
  #111  
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Well, regarding the dues, AMA started out in 1936 with 50 cent dues, then quickly someone arrnaged for OPTIONAL 50 cent a year for insurance that covered something close to $500 max property damage liability... if I remember correctly.
Quickly the insurance became called a "Gas License" because contests required it for participation using a gas power model.
Initially AMA news was published as a courtesy in a magazine (Flying Aces and Model Airplane News. I have some of these issues from 1936 to 1940)

The AMA started publishing a monthly newsletter appx 6 inches by 9 inches and maybe 10 pages (I have a few issues from 1959 - 1960)

Many years and a lot of dues + insurance (still optional) increases, the insurance became a standard part of basic membership with (If I remember correctly) $1 million coverage liability, some medical and other optional coverages being available to AMA members.

Later changes increased the liability coverage to $2.5 million and added some theft of models/supplies coverage. and standard medical coverage for members who manage to injure themselves during the modeling activities.(and I believe there is some vision insurance included now)

Almost every time AMA has had a dues increase there has also been an increase in benefits of some sort. (even it the vast majority never bothered to find out) There are a lot of things AMA does in the name of its members that most of the members don't bother to find out about...

Its an EDUCATIONAL 503c CHARITABLE organization, so there have to be some regular educational based activities, specified by law. AMA's compliance with this includes an annual scholarship being awarded. (HS graduate must have been a member for 3 years to apply... last time I checked)

*****

Lots of complaints came up when AMA bought property for the Muncie facility... but the initial purchase payments were LESS than the rent they'd been paying for office space. It was a good deal.

*****

One of AMA's purposes is to run interference with politicians to try to keep them from making laws that adversely affect the hobby... They've had pretty decent results for 80 years. Most members never knew about the battles they were fighting BECAUSE THEY WON.
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:01 PM
  #112  
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I am sure all you say is true Mr. Fhhuber, all as I am saying is that I feel that this is now a done deal and why beat a dead horse and why throw more money (aka legal fees and such) at a problem that appears we will not win. 5 bucks for 3 years is not going to put anyone in the poor house and lets keep OUR money with the AMA for the reasons you say such as scholarship's and all the good things the AMA does for us.
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:40 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by fhhuber View Post
........
Initially AMA news was published as a courtesy in a magazine (Flying Aces and Model Airplane News. I have some of these issues from 1936 to 1940)

The AMA started publishing a monthly newsletter appx 6 inches by 9 inches and maybe 10 pages (I have a few issues from 1959 - 1960)........
If my memory hasn't gone to heck, you left out one detail concerning the magazine....didn't Don Dewey of RCM fame offer to publish the AMA news as a free addendum to RCM...this sometime in the early 60's? AMA refused this offer....if wrong, I stand corrected...
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Old 12-16-2015, 07:45 PM
  #114  
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Nigel, my thought process is that a with another regulatory agency in the mix I can see some folks thinking the AMA is no longer a necessity. Like I say, just my thoughts. It May never happen but people can do silly things.
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:04 PM
  #115  
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Bill, don't get me wrong. I am a strong supporter of AMA and have been since the late 50's and will most likely stay a supporter in most things. I agree with some of their stands and oppose some...my choice...

However, in reading through the 211 page "Rule", it does seem to me that AMA put far too much effort in allowing AMA to manage this registration process. While I in no way support the "Rule", I was very happy to see that the FAA decided against allowing AMA to administer it....we have had way too much of private servers and such storing personal and government data in recent history.

We'll see if the "Rule" stands if it gets challenged in court.

Don
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:17 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by DEG View Post

However, in reading through the 211 page "Rule", it does seem to me that AMA put far too much effort in allowing AMA to manage this registration process. While I in no way support the "Rule", I was very happy to see that the FAA decided against allowing AMA to administer it....we have had way too much of private servers and such storing personal and government data in recent history.



Don
I FULLY agree. I know the AMA didn't want anything but when it looked like it was going to happen they wanted to be the source. They are trying to preserve themselves, hard to fuss at.

Mike
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Old 12-16-2015, 08:26 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by firemanbill View Post
Nigel, my thought process is that a with another regulatory agency in the mix I can see some folks thinking the AMA is no longer a necessity. Like I say, just my thoughts. It May never happen but people can do silly things.
Fully understand ... I was just commenting that similar was said in UK years ago when I was SMAE.

Nigel
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:08 PM
  #118  
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We are certainly going to be in a state flux for a while.Will be interesting for the next few months a for sure
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:22 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
I think a main concern is this.

Where is all this extra money going? (certainly not all goes to the Data Center like the Q/A says it does do the math and youll see what I mean) like FB says seems like a tax to me.

So you got this Data Base on me how secure is this data base (the govt. couldn't keep DB of classified holders safe) so why would I think my info on RC airplanes has anymore security on it.

I think that this will be challenged in the court as well. Exactly how I don't know yet.

EDIT: I'm sorry but this does change the way we fly. Look at the hobby of the folks who like to look for coins with the metal detectors. That hobby became so regulated that no one wishes to do it. Same goes with Gold Panning Hobby (like anyone is going to strike it rich there) What else as a free society are you just going to give up and well nothing has changed?

EDIT #2: I forgot to say just some food for thought. Now that the FAA wants to do what the AMA has been doing for years. Other than club membership what do you need the AMA for? Insurance?
No way is this a lot of money. They are not even going to get enough money to cover costs of setting up and running the data center. As a "tax" its a failure.

As far as what do you need the AMA for? Yes insurance is a very big reason. Your home owners insurance isn't going to pay. If you tru to buy private insurance to cover the way the AMA covers you good luck. No other insurance covers as much as AMA and what there is, is way way more expensive than AMA insurance.

Also its the AMA that has been fighting the FAA tooth and nail every step of the way on this. How bad do you think it would be if they had not been fighting for the last several years?

Its also the AMA who got congress to pass the law telling the FAA to leave us alone. If that law wasn't there how much worse do you think it would be now? That law is our only hope of stopping this or keeping things from getting worse. Yes, the FAA is ignoring the law, but what if it wasn't there?

You should be praising the AMA, not questioning them.
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Old 12-16-2015, 09:39 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Fishbonez View Post
If I were a gambling man Id say it was because with all the money he has invested with the AMA. Once the AMA really got tested and I mean really tested by the govt. It failed miserably. The AMA admitted to be told by the Govt. essentially to "Shut up and color." I think your friend is right the AMA has to take some of the blame.
What else could they have done differently or more of? They have been sitting down with the FAA for the last several years negotiation on our behalf. They are initiating law suits. They have tried to get us to pressure the FAA with comments and letter drives and calling our congressmen. They have been talking to congress trying to get them to help us.

What more could they have done? Did anyone else do anything at all to help us?

Where would we be if the AMA had not existed or done anything?

WE as members are the ones who have failed to respond as a group. Out of the 180,000 some AMA members only a paltry handful could be bothered to even comment on the FAA website. No wonder the FAA is ignoring the AMA. As far as they can tell, we don't care as a group.

Originally Posted by firemanbill View Post
As a club officer I am concerned that some folks will say why should I have to join the AMA when we are registered with the AMA now.with homeowners being,the primary insurance anyway the AMA insurance was of little to no use anyway.

So with FAA registration and proof of insurance will that suffice and forego the need for AMA membership?

We have some big questions to answer soon.
These were the exact arguments my buddy was making. He seemed to think the AMA has some sort of power they could throw around to order the FAA to do things our way.

Sorry, but we are a very small demographic with little to no political power. Its a wonder the AMA has managed to do as well as they have. If the had not gotten congress to pass that law slowing the FAA down, we would be screwed even worse.

AS I said before, as far as insurance there is no other alternative that covers as well as the AMA insurance at several times the cost. Also, your homeowners insurance isn't going to cover flying fields.

One other thing - now that out models are defined officially as "aircraft" you will find your homeowners insurance no longer covers you.

When I had my fire, I had to fight my insurance to get them to cover my modeling losses because they tried really hard to call them "aircraft" rather than toys. I barely won back then. Now that my models are all officially "aircraft" my homeowners insurance no longer covers my model losses.

You had better call you agent before you try to rely only on homeowners insurance.

You might be able to get a rider, but be prepared to pay a big bonus.
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Old 12-16-2015, 10:04 PM
  #121  
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I don't disagree Larry. I am very PRO AMA.

I guess I came off wrong playing devils advocate. I am just throwing out there what others may say. As Club president of our small club I will absolutely continue to require AMA membership.

They may not be perfect, but then again who is, but they are the only voice we have and yes, it would be a lot worse had they not been there for us.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:31 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by firemanbill View Post
I don't disagree Larry. I am very PRO AMA.

I guess I came off wrong playing devils advocate. I am just throwing out there what others may say. As Club president of our small club I will absolutely continue to require AMA membership.

They may not be perfect, but then again who is, but they are the only voice we have and yes, it would be a lot worse had they not been there for us.
Sorry Bill! Didn't mean to shoot the messenger
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:23 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Larry3215 View Post
Sorry Bill! Didn't mean to shoot the messenger
No worries Brother, just want ed to clarify.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:07 AM
  #124  
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Have to ask you folks have you seen the FAA announcing at all on TV or the newspaper what they are doing? How about notifying the toys stores that are selling quad copters and such. I mean how are they going to pull this off and get their new law out to the masses? So little Joey does not break the law the first time he uses his new toy on XMAS day.
Up here there was only a quick mention of the FAA and what they were doing that was it. If this is set up like they say to educate the new rc buyers to fly responsible then why aren't they advertising and having the stores put up FAA information, so the public knows.
The FAA is really making a mess of pushing this through to quickly.

I am at the point of going from the VP of our club to president, and I have been asked to handle this mess that has been created. Like Bill I feel that I am going to have to ask for each members AMA info, and there FAA number in order to fly. I have all ready sent out a mass email to the club members informing them what is going to be expected when we collect the club dues.
Stinks what is going on, but I will be registering with the FAA. I just don't see any good that will become of it in promoting safe flying. Well gents that's my rant really does bug me that the good people get chastised with a new law.

The old saying locks are for keeping honest people honest . Same applies for laws the lawless just will ignore them.
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Old 12-17-2015, 03:09 AM
  #125  
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As far as it "only" being $5.00, I read an interview with the FAA and they stated it would cost them an estimated $359 million to set up the website, and keep this...whatever...going for the first 3 years. They also stated they knew the initial $5 fee would definitely have to be increased and/or be required more often to cover their costs....so...it IS only going to get worse.
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