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Hummer alterations - now with video!

Old 02-12-2008, 03:54 AM
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jasmine2501
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Default Hummer alterations - now with video!

I got a SIG Hummer... and I didn't realize it was designed to be ailerons and elevator only. I want to use it as a pattern plane, so I'll need a rudder. I can take it back and get something else, but I like the 'vintage' look of it, and would like to just add a rudder. My question is, should I extend the fin and make a rudder or use the existing piece of fin to make the rudder?

Hard to describe but the vertical fin does not extend over the back of the elevator, so I could do it both ways. If I extend the vertical part out over the elevator, I will have to make notches in both parts, but if I just make the rudder out of the existing fin, then it will be hard to route the control pushrods...

There is a photo of it here...
http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGRC50.html

Also, what motor do you think will work on it? It's designed for .049, but some people say it's a little underpowered with that. I'm thinking of using one of these Himax 2812-890kV motors with 3s...

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Old 02-12-2008, 06:57 AM
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Thats a nice plane Jasmine It looks like the old Kaos pattern plane, just add to the rudder, and notch the elevator for rudder clearance, and that should work well, get yourself a motor and prop that will give you 50oz of thrust, keep up the good work, Chellie
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Old 02-12-2008, 05:48 PM
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Hey now,
I had a Hummer a few years back, enjoyed it muchly.
It was originally designed as a half A pylon racer, and it does that very well. Like you I thought it could make a fair pattern model with a few minor changes.
At first I had a Kontronik 400-23 with a 6-5 prop on eight round cells. That should tell you how few the years were:p
It was fast, stable, and not so pattern like, but a great racer.
Later on as LiPos came out I swapped out the motor for a Mega 15-16-7 and 9-5 prop, enlarged the rudder to look more like the Kaos while keeping it a tail dragger and although a bit slower it became a decent pattern model.

The vertical fin needs to be about a third larger than stock and it must go below the stab line, so the idea of notching the fin and elevator is right on.

It did make a fair pattern model and a very fine sportster. However; it isn't going to be a *great* pattern model no matter what you do. It was designed as a racer and that shows through even after mawdefiling it.

If I wanted a pattern model in that size (and I am looking again) I'd prolly have to go with that nasty GWS foamie, the Formosa.
It is the best small pattern model I've ever flown.
It flies exactly like my much larger Zen and my Tai Ji. Some of the finest current pattern models out there.

The Hummer does however fly a lot like the original Kaos and that was "the standard" in pattern for twenty years, it just isn't up to some of the "new" manuvers.
Good luck, have fun with it, it's well worth the build.
RobII
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:50 AM
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That's kind of what I thought... I flew a Kaos (I think) one day for a few minutes on a buddy box, and I really liked it. I'm not expecting super-great performance or anything, I just wanted to build a plane while the weather is crappy, and this was the best option available at the moment from the local shop. I have a Formosa already, and a spare one in the box too. It is a good plane, but it is very light and it doesn't penetrate the wind like the balsa planes do. The photo is the one I trained with... is it a Kaos or a quick fly? The owner of that plane competed in pattern with it at a vintage plane contest. I am not sure if the Hummer qualifies for the vintage meet or not... I think the restriction is pre-1970. It can be a new plane, but the 'design' must be old...
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:03 PM
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Hey now,
The big model looks like a Quick fly, Kaos has less dihedral and a taper to the wing. Nice plane, I have an extended one with air retracts up in the rafters...
Um the Hummer won't be legal for vintage; 1) it isn't old enough, and 2) it wasn't a pattern ship untill you modified it into one, so it's not legal on at least two counts. Not that it matters.

I'm surprised about your Formosa not being good for iffy conditions. Mine was always the "go to" model for iffy conditions, sometimes very iffy.

I think you'll like the Hummer, it's slippery, fastish, and really grooves through turns, but it does have a tip stall under some conditions, so play with it up high untill you find it. It can be really freaky to have it snap out on you after a relatively mild input. Be very carefull if you try knife edge, it'll do it *if*...

I didn't round off the cowl sides on mine but cut them square and attatched a firewall so I could get a cleaner look, worked out well.
RobII
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:23 AM
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Cool... good to know

My Formosa blows around in the wind. It's not hard to fly, it just doesn't track straight if it's windy... it bounces around more than a heavier plane like the Brio, or a low-profile like the Stryker...

Hummer appears to be "1980" - so not old enough for vintage model, but should still be fun to fly.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:32 AM
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I had Hummers twice in my hanger. Both were flown with the TeeDee .051 Cox. Back then they were set up with standard size servos and radio and a 4 AA cell battery pack. Don't ask the AUW because in those days I didn't have a scale but I would guess 1.5 or 2.0 lbs. The plane was a dog for the first few seconds until the motor and prop could get her up on the wing, then just stand back. The plane is very quick to respond to elev. and ail. input and yes it will snap real easy if either are thrown in too quick or too hard. This was also before the days of dual rates on economic priced radios. Dual rates and expo. will do wonders for this plane. Remember the wing has 0 dihedral and a thin profile. That means it will go where you point and stay there until you change the inputs.
I would bet with a submini radio systems and a 2408-21 using a 6x6 or maybe a 7x7 it would really cook.The fuse has a lot of places that could loose weight. Lightening holes along the fully sheeted sides and top and bottom could help. Taking weight out of the tail is anothe place to work. With the .051 and a 2 oz fuel tank I still needed to put the battery and receiver right behind the tank to balance correctly and not add any dead weight. And remember that was with the old standard size RC systems. Oh yea another thing, this was before CA glues were in general use. My planes were all epoxy bonding. Let us know how yours comes out.

Charlie
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:42 AM
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Cool... thanks for the tips. I'll be using much more lightweight materials to build. The motor will be lighter than a fuel motor and the servos will be micros HS-65 probably. I will use CA on the wings, but I used epoxy on the firewall and braces in the fuse. I was thinking that the tail could be lightened up a bit too. I might try something like that. I like the thin symmetrical flat wing and long tail. That's why I thought it might make a good pattern plane.

Do you really think a small, high-pitch prop would be the thing to do? I was thinking of more like an 10x7 Thin Electric with a 200-watt 900-1000 kV outrunner.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by proffcharlie View Post
I had Hummers twice in my hanger. Both were flown with the TeeDee .051 Cox. Back then they were set up with standard size servos and radio and a 4 AA cell battery pack. Don't ask the AUW because in those days I didn't have a scale but I would guess 1.5 or 2.0 lbs. The plane was a dog for the first few seconds until the motor and prop could get her up on the wing, then just stand back. The plane is very quick to respond to elev. and ail. input and yes it will snap real easy if either are thrown in too quick or too hard. This was also before the days of dual rates on economic priced radios. Dual rates and expo. will do wonders for this plane. Remember the wing has 0 dihedral and a thin profile. That means it will go where you point and stay there until you change the inputs.
I would bet with a submini radio systems and a 2408-21 using a 6x6 or maybe a 7x7 it would really cook.The fuse has a lot of places that could loose weight. Lightening holes along the fully sheeted sides and top and bottom could help. Taking weight out of the tail is anothe place to work. With the .051 and a 2 oz fuel tank I still needed to put the battery and receiver right behind the tank to balance correctly and not add any dead weight. And remember that was with the old standard size RC systems. Oh yea another thing, this was before CA glues were in general use. My planes were all epoxy bonding. Let us know how yours comes out.

Charlie

Hi Charlie I remember those days too, before CA we used a glue that would get you HIGH kind of a amber color stuff, and we did not have monokote then either, it was tissue paper or silk span and Dope, the fumes from the dope would get you High too No Wonder I have Enjoyed this Hobby for so Long Take care, Chellie
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
Cool... thanks for the tips. I'll be using much more lightweight materials to build. The motor will be lighter than a fuel motor and the servos will be micros HS-65 probably. I will use CA on the wings, but I used epoxy on the firewall and braces in the fuse. I was thinking that the tail could be lightened up a bit too. I might try something like that. I like the thin symmetrical flat wing and long tail. That's why I thought it might make a good pattern plane.

Do you really think a small, high-pitch prop would be the thing to do? I was thinking of more like an 10x7 Thin Electric with a 200-watt 900-1000 kV outrunner.
Hi Jasmine put a mega motor on it like a 16-25-2 and a 7x6 apc prop and 2100mah 3 cell 20C lipo on it, and nothing will be able to catch you, I belive that set up will do 118mph in a Stryker I purchased a stryker from atlanta Hobbies, just all the pieces that I will need, and a 2700kv motor from Hobby City, just waiting for that to come in, That should be fun to fly, Take care, Chellie

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Old 02-17-2008, 08:42 AM
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Ok Jas, if you want to go bigger props and fly slower lets look at other factors. With the thin wing this plane does not like slow flight. That's why it was such a bear on take off. While the ailerons run the full lenght of the wing, they aren't very long cord wise. At lower speeds they tend to be very mushy. The elevator has plenty of authority, enough to cause a stall real easy at low speeds. This plane (wing, tail) design was intended for high speed. The reason it will hang in there on knife edge is because in pylon racing the idea is go fast, tap left aileron to knife edge, tap up elevator to turn, tap right aileron to level wing, go FAST and repeat till motor runs out of fuel then high speed landing. The plane does not, I repeat does not like to float. At anything under about 15 to 20 mph it will tip stall and snap into the ground. I would suggest if you want to try pattern or 3D try finding a Lanier Stinger Ten and double the aileron cord length and lighten up the fuse. If you're into scrath building take the basic wing profile of the Hummer and double the profile thickness and then you'll have a starting point for pattern/3D.

Charlie
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Old 02-17-2008, 08:50 AM
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Yes Chellie the old days were fun when building. My problem was sometimes the morning after a night of building I would have to cut half of my work apart and redo to get everything straight. All those "fumes" caused spacial dysfunction. On the positive side, there was plenty of "inspiration" to the designs. Most planes were a "one of a kind" if you know what I mean.

Charlie
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:23 PM
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OK that makes sense. I didn't think about that issue of speed for the wing. I'll have to try a higher speed motor then. I like the idea of flying fast. It's fine if it doesn't work for pattern. I just like things that are different, and I don't have a plane quite like it yet. I have the Formosa for strictly pattern style stuff.
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:25 PM
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It does look like an 1980's plane. good luck with it Jasmine. Keep us involved with you build..
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
That's kind of what I thought... I flew a Kaos (I think) one day for a few minutes on a buddy box, and I really liked it. I'm not expecting super-great performance or anything, I just wanted to build a plane while the weather is crappy, and this was the best option available at the moment from the local shop. I have a Formosa already, and a spare one in the box too. It is a good plane, but it is very light and it doesn't penetrate the wind like the balsa planes do. The photo is the one I trained with... is it a Kaos or a quick fly? The owner of that plane competed in pattern with it at a vintage plane contest. I am not sure if the Hummer qualifies for the vintage meet or not... I think the restriction is pre-1970. It can be a new plane, but the 'design' must be old...
jasmine::Looks a little like a kiwi,( I'm give'in this one to monkey cause I hates Him) Or this old one I scratched up 25-30 years ago, She still flys great, I just bought a new OS 45 for her, keep the throws down an she'll be tame as a kitten , bub,steve
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:59 PM
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Hey Bub Steve. You still got the box too... Good plane to still have.....
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Old 02-18-2008, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
I got a SIG Hummer... and I didn't realize it was designed to be ailerons and elevator only. I want to use it as a pattern plane, so I'll need a rudder. I can take it back and get something else, but I like the 'vintage' look of it, and would like to just add a rudder. My question is, should I extend the fin and make a rudder or use the existing piece of fin to make the rudder?

Hard to describe but the vertical fin does not extend over the back of the elevator, so I could do it both ways. If I extend the vertical part out over the elevator, I will have to make notches in both parts, but if I just make the rudder out of the existing fin, then it will be hard to route the control pushrods...

There is a photo of it here...
http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGRC50.html

Also, what motor do you think will work on it? It's designed for .049, but some people say it's a little underpowered with that. I'm thinking of using one of these Himax 2812-890kV motors with 3s...
Hi,

I would extend the tail fin with a 1 inch balsa, and cut the bottom of this fin 45 degrees to avoid interuptions with the elevator.. Using a 1mm music wire right through the tail wing and the fusalage. Then you can route the pushrod under the tail wing for easier access.

I don't know the motor you're describing, but a 890kv should be a little underpowered unless you want a slowflyer and not a "racer". If you try an Atlas 2317/16 (1090kv), suitable for sport and acrobatic, for planes from 20 - 40 oz. 3 cell lipo, and 8 x 8 or 9 x 6, it should not be a problem flying, slow, fast, vertical, knife edge - you name it.

Br.

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Old 02-19-2008, 02:44 AM
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Well as someone mentioned above, having more speed and less thrust with a high-RPM electric prop, small but pitchy, like a Stryker but with a bigger and more pitchy prop... I think that's the way to go. The thin wing will need some speed to stay up. If I went with lower RPM and loads of thrust, it would be close to stalling all the time and would be using the prop to stay up. I need it to be able to fly level with a near-zero AOA... so that means the wing will have to be generating all the lift. Speed seems to be the way to go.
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Old 02-23-2008, 08:35 AM
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Jasmine, you got me thinking about either building a Stinger 10 for electric or moding a Hummer with a Stinger wing. Seems just as I get to the 75% complete point somebody starts a project that sets me off in a different direction. That's why I have more in progress planes than flyers. Oh well maybe I should get back to work and finish something.

Charlie
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Old 02-23-2008, 05:06 PM
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I've been working a lot trying to bring some software to market, so I haven't had much time to build either. The weather might be good for flying today, so I'll take some of that time again, but tomorrow will be windy, so you know, building time again. Picking up the covering material for it today. I haven't even got the fuse together. All I've done is epoxy the doublers on there... that's like... step 3 in the book
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:54 PM
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Here she is... almost done

I think I'm going with someone else's suggestion and call it Clown Ship One.
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Old 03-09-2008, 08:18 AM
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@jasmine2501:

Nice plane. What motor and battery are you going to use?

PS! That plane should be quite visible if you crash into the woods one day

Vidar
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Low-Q View Post
@jasmine2501:

Nice plane. What motor and battery are you going to use?

PS! That plane should be quite visible if you crash into the woods one day

Vidar
Hehe... yes it should be easy to see pretty much all the time. I am going to use a 3-cell 2100 probably, and I think a Park 450 motor. Not sure if it will fit though. Something with kV around 1300 or more and putting out 15-20 amps should work good. As someone suggested above, going with a higher-speed faster prop should work. The wing is very skinny... not very 'lifty'
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Old 03-10-2008, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
Hehe... yes it should be easy to see pretty much all the time. I am going to use a 3-cell 2100 probably, and I think a Park 450 motor. Not sure if it will fit though. Something with kV around 1300 or more and putting out 15-20 amps should work good. As someone suggested above, going with a higher-speed faster prop should work. The wing is very skinny... not very 'lifty'
Iguess you're on track about the motor. What is the the wideness/thickness ratio on the wing? The greater this ratio is, the faster the plane will be able to fly. The speed is also determind by the relative scale of the wing. If you have all the details for the wing, it should be possible to calculate the max speed, then find a suitable motor.

Br.

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Old 03-10-2008, 04:25 PM
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Hey Jasmine,
Gawds! You and my wife... Those colours make my eyes bleed.
Won't have any trouble seeing it though.

Last week I dug through my old stash pile of planes and found my Hummer. I got out a few motors to test it out just to see what worked best. I first tried a Mega 1516-4 with a 6-55 prop, very scooty.
I got on step quickly and flew like the pylon racer it is. 'Round the pylons very nice and after the third lap I didn't even bother leveling it after the turns. Did well with the old style high speed pattern flight too.

Next I pulled out that motor and tried a E-Flite park 450 with a 10-7 prop.
It got on step (sort of) but didn't have the speed and didn't feel solid in the air. I tried a couple other props on it and never got what I'd call a decent flight.

After this I got out an ARC short can 2.5 turn with a 5-5 prop.
Hoo Boy! Now we're movin'! Very fast, not modern pylon fast but too fast for pattern work and I cracked the spar doing too tight turns.
Sop I went back to the Mega four turn motor and played with props a bit. Seems a six square prop was best for it, great speed and good bite for climbing. You'd be surprised at how fast this thing wants to fly to get that thin wing working well.

Also I looked at it closely and realised I had reset the landing gear back from the stock position. I have mine mounted between the leading edge and spar on the wing. Really improved the ground handling on mine.

Still, it's not where I'm flying these days so after the tests I pulled the motor back out to use in my next project and hung the Hummer on the wall in my "free to a friend" section.

I think you'll have good fun with this as a fast pattern high wind model, but I doubt you'll like it with the park 450.
RobII
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