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Thinking about diving in to 3D

Old 08-04-2012, 11:36 PM
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dahawk
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Default Thinking about diving in to 3D

Hey guys,

Have a hankering to get into 3D. Over the last year, I've progressed from trainers to highly maneuverable pusher "prop in the slot" parkjets to edf's to even a twin. I would consider myself to be at the low end of intermediate. Knowing my own limitiations I have not felt I was anywhere near ready for 3D until recently. My next adventure.

So, I start the research. I've watched guys fly their gorgeous 3DHS models. They used to be out of Austin. Out of my price range once you get everything. Uber high quality without any doubt.

Seems like this category breaks down to Slicks, Edges, Yaks or SBachs. All having extreme throws on ailerons and elevator. All that can hang on the prop.

I want the best of both worlds and maybe that does not exist. A decent quality plane that offers good 3D performance but will not break the bank.

Headed for the Sim !

Thanks in advance for your expert advice !

-Hawk
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:33 AM
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mclarkson
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Maybe a nice EPP model, like this Twisted Hobbies Pitts? (They also have Slicks and SBachs...)

Or maybe the UMX Beast?
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:38 AM
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I can't give you expert advice, but I can give you advice from the point of view of a fellow 3D wannabe:

If you want to get into 3D without breaking the bank (or your airframes), foamies is the way to go. Run, don't walk, to twistedhobbys.com and pick up their ExtraSlick foamie. I think they sell a receiver ready kit for about $150. It accepts 500mAh 2S batteries which you can get for about $3-5 from the US HobbyKing warehouse. Since EPP is really flexible, you can put it in pretty hard without damage. And if it breaks, you get clean breaks like tearing a paper, which are really easy to repair. No shattering like with other types of foam.

There are other similar airframes, but the idea of a sturdy EPP airframe is the way to go. It's going to help you build confidence while you're gaining understanding of basic maneuvers, such as harriers and hovers.

The next step is to translate the foamie skills to a balsa airframe. That's a bit tricky, but it's mainly about confidence. I'm at a point where I can hover and harrier my foamie until the cows come home, but I still have issues doing it with style and grace on my balsa planes.

So go get yourself a 3D foamie and experience the fun of basic 3D maneuvers!!!

Last edited by NJSwede; 08-05-2012 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:40 AM
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Yep the foamy is the way to start. And 3DHS has those too. Also their smaller planes are affordable.

Mike
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:08 AM
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dahawk
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Thanks guys !

Ultimately, I'm looking for something that has multiple personalities. I realize the best way to learn technique would be to go for the light foamies as suggested. I'm not into the artistic, close to the ground , ballet stuff. Hovering, Knife edging and Harrier.

Been practicing on the sim and it's hard.

Suppose there's no better way to learn these techniques without crashing several times, something that could get exve in a balsa model. That's why they are built like they are, right? They seem kind of pricey for something that looks like I could scrub my floor with.

Right now, when I want to experiment with any kind of new maneuver, altitude is my friend. But I'm limited in what my current squadron can handle.

Is there an aerobatic plane that can do all of these things on demand yet still fly like an airplane when I want to ? I'm afraid with any kind of altitude, these ultralight foamies will blow away.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:23 AM
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NJSwede
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Been practicing on the sim and it's hard.
It's actually easier (in my opinion) with a foamie than it is in the simulator. Regardless whether the low and slow harriers and hovers are your end goal, they are important building blocks you should practice. In my noob opinion, of course.

Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Suppose there's no better way to learn these techniques without crashing several times, something that could get exve in a balsa model. That's why they are built like they are, right? They seem kind of pricey for something that looks like I could scrub my floor with.
Yeah, when you get the kit you kind of think "is this what I paid 100+ bucks for?" but it pays for itself quickly. You can practice things that would literally cost you dozens of balsa air frames. And it's fun. Just trust me on that.

Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Is there an aerobatic plane that can do all of these things on demand yet still fly like an airplane when I want to ? I'm afraid with any kind of altitude, these ultralight foamies will blow away.
There is the 3DHS Edge 41" (which I own), the famous "$99 buck huck" (now priced at $109). Turn the rates down, and it's a beautiful sport plane. There's a ton of other similar planes, but the buck huck is what I'm familiar with. I think you'd like it.

But "ultralight" is kind of the name of the game. Planes have to be extremely light and overpowered to have a chance to do 3D.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Thinking about diving in to 3D

Thanks guys !

Ultimately, I'm looking for something that has multiple personalities.

Is there an aerobatic plane that can do all of these things on demand yet still fly like an airplane when I want to ? I'm afraid with any kind of altitude, these ultralight foamies will blow away.
Sure they fly wonderfully as aerobatics sport planes. Then you can increase the throws and move the CG back as you go.
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Old 08-05-2012, 01:21 PM
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Thanks Mike,

I think for now, I will spend some more time trying to master what I have, learning and improving on aerobatic moves like inverted. Then, take your suggestion and go with an aerobatic sport plane i can grow into.

Cheers,

Hawk
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:10 PM
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I will tell you one thing though: Even though I'm still a LOUSY 3D pilot, dabbling in 3D has done a lot for my general flying skills. 3D teaches you valuable skills, such as using the rudder. I've noticed my 3D dabbling has improved my sport flying a lot.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:30 PM
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Thanks Swede,

I'm inspired to learn new things. That's what attracts me most to this hobby. Not a day goes by when I don't learn something new. Keeps the brain active, well, sort of.... LOL

Heading out to field before the heat and wind arrive.

Cheers,

Hawk
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Old 08-05-2012, 11:36 PM
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Yah you can't go wrong with an EPP foamie. I bought a twisted hobbies crack Pitts as my first 3d plane and wow it is so much fun to fly. I've learned things on that thing I wouldve never learned any other way. I have since bought a twisted hobbies extra slick and that things flies like its on rails. They are both a blast and there is no fear of damage that I cannot easily repair and most times when I crash it on the ground there is no damage at all.

I've cartwheeled the Pitts nose it into the street and parking lot quite a few times and it still flies just as good as new and my flying skills are coming along quickly. Ive saved a few mistakes that a few weeks ago woulda resulted in me walking to pick up the plane. Lol.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:15 AM
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dahawk
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Chris,

Thanks for the info on the Pitts 3D foamie. Looks pretty good.

Mike , Tried 3DHS's site yesterday and it might have been down.

-Hawk
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:06 AM
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So I was at the field on Saturday and a guy named Ron pulls up with a large trailer and rolls out the fuse of a very extreme Slick 540 3D airplane. Put it together and flew for a group of us hanging out. I took vids and and pics.



11 foot WS. 120cc engine, Futaba everything. The company that designed and built it (Aerotech) made 18 of them before going out of business and only 4 are known to exist in the world today. What a treat this was to see it close up and what an outstanding pilot Ron is. He hung this bad boy on the prop right in front us a foot off the ground. He's on the AMA advisory board.

He also had some 3D foamies with him that he highly recommended as 3D trainers from Charger RC: http://www.chargerrc.com/shopexd.asp?id=93

Also recommended: http://www.rcplanebuilder.com/

When I'm ready to give 3D a try, I think this is the way I'll get started. Then, move on to something like the Sabre X or Yak-54

Thanks guys for all your advice !

Hawk
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Old 08-19-2012, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Swede,
A visitor showed up at the field today with a Value Hobby Yak-54. Looked and flew very nice. He was a pretty good pilot. Nice flat spins, tumbles nad knoife edges. He said he also has the Sabre X. Loves em both ! Had a G10 BL and was flying 3S. This one is a bit cheaper than the Sabre X. Have em both on the radar screen. Large blips!
(Moved this discussion to where it belongs...) I haven't flown the Yak, but from what I've learned so far, the Sabre X is probably a better choice for a first balsa 3D plane. The SX has lighter wing loading, more wing area, probably flies a little slower and has somewhat gentler stall transition. This is just based on looking at the Yak and seeing others fly it, so a grain of salt is recommended...

@stuart saw me fly the SX yesterday and although I'm not much of a 3D pilot, I think I was able to demonstrate how easy it harriers. We where casually chatting while I was harriering it a couple of feet off the deck. Other than my foamies, I haven't been able to do that with my other planes.

Ok. I really think I got to get off that Sabre X Kool-Aid now. Is there a detox clinic somwhere in NJ?
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Old 08-19-2012, 04:12 PM
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dahawk
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Thanks Swede,

Advice well taken and appreciated. Sabre X is moving up the charts. Did you go with the the VH recommended setup suggestions? EG Sevos? Motor? ESC ?

Hawk
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Old 08-19-2012, 06:15 PM
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NJSwede
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
Thanks Swede,

Advice well taken and appreciated. Sabre X is moving up the charts. Did you go with the the VH recommended setup suggestions? EG Sevos? Motor? ESC ?

Hawk
You absolutely don't want to go with the recommended setup! I went with the recommended PowerHD servos and they are complete and utter garbage. Bad centering and one of them stripped on the 10th flight or something like that. I changed to Hitec HS-82MG all around and it flies noticeably better. You can splurge and go with the 85MG as well.

I'm using a HobbyWing Platinum 60A. Works just fine.

The motor is a EMax GT 2826/05 (860kv). I'm pulling a bit over 900W and it's perfectly acceptable for a budget alternative. Nice vertical and pulls out of hovers with authority. My flying style is on the aggressive side, so I'll probably upgrade to a Motrolfly DM3615/750kv. One of the guys on RCGroups runs that motor and reports outstanding performance. It's almost three times as expensive as the EMax, though...

ValueHobby seems to have discontinued the EMax motor, but HeadsUpRC still has it. The one that's recommended by VH is too weak...
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Old 08-19-2012, 08:03 PM
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NJ,

The Motrolfly DM 3615 is a fantastic motor. They are rather expensive but when you consider that each motor is handbuilt and all of the parts are custom made or specially modified then they are great value.

I'm running my 750kv version on a 4s battery with a 14x7 Xoar prop and it pulls 1050W and gives 4Kg of thrust on a fresh battery. This motor is noticably more efficient than anything else I've tried spinning the prop faster for the same input power and running cooler. they are also structurally bulletproof as the motor is very short and has a beefy 6mm shaft, no way can you ever get magnet to stator contact with this motor, which is more than I can say for several motors I've tried recently.

I've got mine fitted in a 48" Extreme Flight Edge EXP in which it's total overkill, but a lot of fun!

Steve
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:25 AM
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I had shelved the sport aerobatic 3D plane idea for a while but now I'm knee deep into it. Was at a fly-in fundraiser raffle event in Oklahoma sponsored by Hobby King this past weekend and came home with two, yes two, fiberglass fuse and balsa constructed Yak-54's.

One is a 1330mm WS HK Yak-54 46: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...46_3D_Kit.html

The other is a 1385mm WS Tranchant Fly Fly Yak-54 : http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...-fuselage.html

I think I'll focus on the Tranchant and give the other to a fellow club member I had a mid-air with on Sunday. He had a new profile 3D gasser and I was running standard circuits at 1/4 throttle with my little speedy Rare Bear trimming her out. He came from above or I came from below, but Bam ! My Bear fluttered to the ground sans motor and v-stab and he was able to land but with sustained damage to the wing. Man, was he pissed. Packed up his stuff while I was still out in the thorn brush looking for pieces and parts and before I could even offer to give him a new plane. I guess Mr. NTSB thought it was all my fault. Oh well, as a less experienced rc pilot, I'll accept that.

Anyway, Power setup rec for the Tranchant ? Headsuprc / Emax ? I'll put good servos in this baby. Hitec 82's.

Will set throws low for sport flying. Won't attempt 3D maneuvers until much later.

Thanks,

Hawk
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
I had shelved the sport aerobatic 3D plane idea for a while but now I'm knee deep into it. Was at a fly-in fundraiser raffle event in Oklahoma sponsored by Hobby King this past weekend and came home with two, yes two, fiberglass fuse and balsa constructed Yak-54's.

One is a 1330mm WS HK Yak-54 46: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...46_3D_Kit.html

The other is a 1385mm WS Tranchant Fly Fly Yak-54 : http://www.hobbypeople.net/index.php...-fuselage.html

I think I'll focus on the Tranchant and give the other to a fellow club member I had a mid-air with on Sunday. He had a new profile 3D gasser and I was running standard circuits at 1/4 throttle with my little speedy Rare Bear trimming her out. He came from above or I came from below, but Bam ! My Bear fluttered to the ground sans motor and v-stab and he was able to land but with sustained damage to the wing. Man, was he pissed. Packed up his stuff while I was still out in the thorn brush looking for pieces and parts and before I could even offer to give him a new plane. I guess Mr. NTSB thought it was all my fault. Oh well, as a less experienced rc pilot, I'll accept that.

Anyway, Power setup rec for the Tranchant ? Headsuprc / Emax ? I'll put good servos in this baby. Hitec 82's.

Will set throws low for sport flying. Won't attempt 3D maneuvers until much later.

Thanks,

Hawk
From what I can see, the Tranchant needs standard size servos, so the HS82s will be too small. In any case, I've found that the 82s are a bit too weak in the design to withstand 3D. I already have considerable slop in my rudder servos after some 30 flights. Hardcore 3D abuse, but still...

If have a set of Turnigy 930MG in my MoneyShot and they've been really, really good so far! Very precise and strong and has held up to some pretty merciless abuse. I probably have 70-100 flights on them and one pretty bad crash without issues. They seem to be out of stock right now, unfortunately...

For the motor, you need to be in the 900-1000W range to do 3D on that one (yes, I know you said you won't do any, but that's what I said too, and look where I am now! ). Maybe this one as a budget alternative?

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...tor/Categories

I have this one in my 51" Sabre X, which is a tad smaller and quite a bit lighter. It may work, but you likely won't have a ton of power to punch out of hovers:

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...tor/Categories

It's a great motor, but may not be the best for really hard 3D, as it has a long can and a fairly thin shaft. Mine is still holding up, although I have a slight scraping noise, that may be magnets rubbing.

I haven't tested FirePower 46 from HeadsUp, but judging from Gyro over on another site it's working very well for him in his 51" AJ Slick. It may be a better choice than the Emax, since it's stubbier and has a thicker shaft.

http://www.headsuprc.com/servlet/the...tor/Categories

If you want to splurge on the motor (and you probably should once you're getting into hard 3D) Motrolfly seems to be the brand of choice these days. I have a DM2820/750 in my Laser and it's crazy, CRAZY powerful! You'd probably be fine with the DM 3615/750, but if you think your AUW and wallet can handle it, you may want to peek at the DM4315. You'd have a real rocket if you went for that!

http://www.subsonicplanes.com/Motrolfly_Motors.html

As for the ESC, a great value brand it ZTW, which you can pick up from the nice guys over at Altitude Hobbies. I'm running the 70A in my EF Laser with great results. The only complaint I've heard about ZTW is that the thermal shutdown is a bit "trigger happy", so you always want to go a size bigger than your actual amp pull. This really isn't much of a problem, since they're smaller and lighter than their competitors.

I think this one would be perfect for you. You may be ok with the 70A version too, but the 85A gives you some room to grow...

http://www.altitudehobbies.com/brush...-esc-w-4a-sbec

I hope this helps!
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:03 PM
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Swede,

Many thanks for your great advice ! Lot's of options to consider here.Coach or Business Class. My Dad used to tell me: " It only costs a little more to go first-class"
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