Hi-Performance and Sailplanes RC hotliners, electric pylon racers, F5B, F5D, sailplanes and gliders

Learning to use a Hi-Start to launch your glider

Old 04-02-2007, 12:21 PM
  #26  
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The Dynaflite HD would the the right model for that plane. I don't recommend the Dynaflite standard for 2M planes regardless of what they advertise. It is adequate, but I feel th HD is much better. I would not even try a 3 M plane with that HS even thought they say it will launch it. Maybe a real light weight 3M like a bird of time, but not much more.

At 3X pull I think that HS will give you about 10 pounds of pull which is plenty for the Vista.

If you are snagging the rubber it will eventually cut it up, so I would try to clear the path to some extent.
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Old 04-09-2007, 03:14 AM
  #27  
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Ed....have you had a chance to try the turnaround with the histart?
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:59 AM
  #28  
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Default Best use of launch space available

Hi all.

3 successfull flight sessions so far, still absolutely no damage, despite some somewhat hairy landings.

A question though - the field I have available is too short for a 6x launch force. It is long enough for a 3x launch force though.

Am I better off sticking with a 3x launch force, with the use of the entire hi-start length, or shortening the hi-start (nylon part) to allow a 6x launch force?

Which option would give the higher launch?

My guess is that shortening the nylon and increasing the force would give a higher launch, but this is just a hunch.

Much appreciated,

Nick.
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:58 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by nicklanigan View Post
Hi all.

3 successfull flight sessions so far, still absolutely no damage, despite some somewhat hairy landings.

A question though - the field I have available is too short for a 6x launch force. It is long enough for a 3x launch force though.

Am I better off sticking with a 3x launch force, with the use of the entire hi-start length, or shortening the hi-start (nylon part) to allow a 6x launch force?

Which option would give the higher launch?

My guess is that shortening the nylon and increasing the force would give a higher launch, but this is just a hunch.

Much appreciated,

Nick.
Nick, you have confused pull length ( feet and inches ) with pull power ( pounds of force )

When I say 3X launch force I am talking about a pull force of 3 times the weight of your model in pounds, not 3X the length of your hi-start rubber in feet. To get to 6X launch force you MIGHT pull further if you have a strong hi-start or a light model but more likely you need a stronger hi-start.

The Aerofoam Hosemonster is the only hi-start that I know of that claims to go to 6X pull length without damage, but that says NOTHING about the force of the pull. The force would depend on the thickness of the rubber. Only the most expensive hi-starts can sustain a 5X+ pull length. Most hi-starts will be damaged or break beyond 4X.

That means a 100 foot piece of rubber is stretched 3X its length, a stretched length of 400 feet. Any more than that and you will likely damage or destroy it.

Since that hi-start would likely have about 400' of line on it, the fully extended length of the rubber plus string would be 800 feet. So we say you need about 800 feet of space to use a typical full sized hi-start.

I will give you some typical numbers to illustrate. All of these would be at a pull of 3X the length of the rested rubber. They are all very approximate.

1/4" od latex tube - about 4-7 pounds ( typical 1M-2M hi-start )
5/16" od latex tube - about 8-14 pounds ( typical 2M-3 hi-start )
3/8" od latex tube - about 12-18 pounds ( typical 3M+ hi-start )
7/16" od latex tube - 15-25 pounds ( perhaps a competition 3M hi-start)
1/2" od latex tube - about 30+ pounds ( typical 4M hi-start )

All are 3X pull. Those are VERY approximate. A lot depends on the quality of the rubber, the thickness of the tube wall, etc. Typical wall thickness can vary from 1/32 to 3/32 and some are solid rubber.

I have a hi-start that I think is 3/8 rubber with a 3/32 wall. At 1.5X pull I get about 12-14 pounds of pull to launch my Spirit, Sagitta 600 and similar ships at 5-6X their weight. At 2.5X pull I get about 25 pounds pull to launch my Airtronics Legend at 5X its weight. At that pull I can barely hold the plane. IT is supposed to be able to launch 4M planes of maybe 8-10 pounds.

For the Spirit, a much better match would be a 5/16" tube with a 1/16" wall. It would provide a pull similar force but I could pull it out 3X its length in order to deliver that force over a longer period of time. That would yield a better climb and less stress on the plane.

I hope that clarifies things. Length of pull and power/force of pull are related but not the same. It varies a lot depending on the strength of your hi-start, but typically pulling the rubber more than 3X will damage it.

None of these numbers relate to fabric covered bungee which typically can not stretch this far due to the fabric covering. I don't like, don't use and don't recommend fabric covered bungee/shock cord for launching planes, but some people use it.

Last edited by AEAJR; 04-10-2007 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 04-10-2007, 02:01 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by WillKrash View Post
Ed....have you had a chance to try the turnaround with the histart?
No I have not. It has been too cold most of the time. And, frankly, I rarely use my hi-starts for launching these days as I have access to a winch.

Winches are very expensive, about $400-$800. If I was not part of a club, I would not have a winch available and would be using a hi-start to launch.
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:26 AM
  #31  
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Thanks Ed, I didn't have the 2 things confused (force vs length stretched), but didn't make the explanation clear enough.

Basically, if I stretch the hi-start the full length of the field available, I get a force of about 9 pounds - about 3x the weight of the plane.

To get 18 pounds of force - 6x weight of plane, I'd have to shorten the nylon, then stretch the hi-start the length of the field again, as the field is a fixed length.

My question relates to which of these 2 scenarios would give the higher launch height?
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Old 04-11-2007, 01:46 AM
  #32  
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Getting the right balance of line is important. A stronger pull will allow you to carry more line giving you a higher launch.

When I adjust I look at how the plane goes up. If it travels a nice arch and lifts the line and most of the hi-start, I have a good balance of pull vs. line. The pull continues throught the whole climb.

If it seems to run out of gas about 2/3 of the way up, I have too much line. Basically the pull is running out before the plane hits the top of the arc. Then you drop off some line.

When there is a breeze, say 5 mph or better, you can typically add line as the plane will act as a kite and resist the contraction of the rubber. Get a 10 mph wind and you can add a lot of line. The more wind, the more line you can add.

On my practice hi-start I have 25 feet of 7/16 rubber. Max pull is about 12 pounds. With a 3M 70 ounce plane, I have to shorten it to about 75 feet. With a light 36 ounce plane I can put on 125 feet. If there is a 5+ mph wind I can add about 25 feet to either of these and still get that good arch and have the plane climbing well all the way up.

With a good wind and a good balance of line you can pick up almost the whole hi-start and release almost over the spike.

If you get real good, you can even lean to zoom off the hi-start and add 50-150 feet to your launches.

Also go back and reread post 8
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...20&postcount=8
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Old 04-14-2007, 05:17 AM
  #33  
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Default Hi-start video

Nice 4m Multiplex ASH-26. Look for the launches during Hi-Start...

Because of the field setup the owner chose to launch downwind, ROG was not possible because of high grass. As you can see the plane was stalling during launch, but luckily it picked up speed fast enough...
The tail dropping was a combination of a couple things. The stab is small relative to the wing and relies on a long moment arm. This only works when there is enough air speed for the stab to function. When the plane pitches upward during launch, the stab is in the stalled turbulent wake of the wing, so it still has nothing to work with.
The main solution is to switch to a pair of hooks right under the wing
on the sides of the fuselage. The owner of the ASH is currently working on that... Enjoy the video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-sYXc9gbUE
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Old 04-14-2007, 06:25 AM
  #34  
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The stab was not really an issue.

Down wind = stall

The person throwing was trying to give that last push and was pulling the back of the fuse down. Hard to avoid.

A bridal under the wings, or move the hook forward a bit and it would handle that launch situation a little better. But considering it was a down wind launch, it went OK. Lucky he did not crack it up.

I would love to see how it launches into the wind.

Any idea what hi-start he was using and how far he pulled it?
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Old 05-25-2007, 04:32 PM
  #35  
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I'm new at soaring although I've been flying glow power for 9 years now. I got hooked on gliding, believe it or not with my electric slow stick. We had a fun fly at my club and one of the events was climb and glide. I took my slow stick up as high as I could, Powered back and started my glide. I don't know if I hit a thermal or what but the plane just kept going up. I flew for about 20 mins. before I finally touched down. Ever since then I have been flying my stick that way. All the other guys like to fly low and do combat with their slow sticks. This too is fun but I got tired of repairing prop tears in my wings. I decided to buy a sailplane and a hi-start and give that a try. I'm not use to trimming a plane from a hand launch which resulted in a "Yard Dart" crash. It only broke the bulkhead in front of the wing which was an easy repair. I learned that you must keep the plane straight and level to trim it. I have it pretty well trimmed now and I'm ready now for my first hi-start launch. I have been a little scared to try it up till now but with all the advice given in this thread I think that I'm ready. My hi- start has a 30' rubber and a 200' line. I think that I will try my first launch with the full length. I have ample room to do this so I think that it would be best to start out that way. If anyone has any more advice for me, I'm all ears. No one in my club flies sailplanes so I guess I'm on my own.
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Old 05-25-2007, 05:10 PM
  #36  
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Welcome to soaring. You have a great time ahead of you.

What you have would typically be called an up-start, or a small hi-start.

What plane are you flying?
What does it weigh, approximately?

Do you have a fish scale to test the pull of your upstart? Not required, just a helpful tool.

Where is your tow hook placed relative to the CG?

Remember to give it a good hard throw so it can get up to flying speed quickly.

Always launch into the wind!

Good luck and may the lift be abundant!
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Old 05-25-2007, 06:23 PM
  #37  
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Thanks for your reply. I have a Tower Hobbies Vista 2 meter. I wanted to start out with something cheap. It floats good with just a hand launch. I have the tow hook in the foward most position and the weight is approx 32 ozs. I do not have a fish scale. Funny because I'm an avid fisherman. lol. I have tried to locate other glider pilots in my area with no luck as of yet. I live in South Western Virginia near Bristol. Hopefully someone that reads this post may live in the same area and offer some help.

Last edited by rc_flyboy1; 05-25-2007 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 06-01-2007, 01:15 AM
  #38  
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Check the Eastern Soaring League web site, www.flyesl.com then click on the about the ESL button and you will find a list of member clubs. Maybe one is near you.
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Old 08-24-2007, 05:17 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by rc_flyboy1 View Post
Thanks for your reply. I have a Tower Hobbies Vista 2 meter. I wanted to start out with something cheap. It floats good with just a hand launch. I have the tow hook in the foward most position and the weight is approx 32 ozs. I do not have a fish scale. Funny because I'm an avid fisherman. lol. I have tried to locate other glider pilots in my area with no luck as of yet. I live in South Western Virginia near Bristol. Hopefully someone that reads this post may live in the same area and offer some help.
How are you doing with your Vista? Did you find a club, or hook up with some other glider pilots?

How are you and your hi-start getting along?
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Old 02-06-2008, 06:12 AM
  #40  
montanacos
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Default plans and suggestions?

I would love to get into gliders and slope soaring. I also would love to build a 2 +/- meter glider that would work for this. Do you know of any plans that would make a good trainer, and yet give years of good enjoyable soaring?

Thanks in advance.

Tim
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Old 02-06-2008, 12:32 PM
  #41  
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I can name many kits and ARFs. I am not generally a plans builder. However the AMA has a plans service.

AMA Plans Service
http://www.modelaircraft.org/plans.aspx


This thread is about learning to use a hi-start so I don't want to get into a big discussion about slope planes and kit. However if you start a thread on the topic and post the link, I will join it.

Ed
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Old 02-06-2008, 01:40 PM
  #42  
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Hello Tim, Welcome to Wattflyer!
Ed is correct, you will have better luck if you start a specific thread for your question. Something like "Good 1st Glider from plans" or "Scratch-Built Glider, any suggestions?" etc.
In the meantime, you can check out the links on the sticky at the top of this Forum; http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28303
And any of the "Plans Services" here;
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14868
Under "Gliders" or "Sailplanes".
Depending on your building experience, you might be better off with a kit or ARF. For kits, a couple I would recommend are the "Gentle Lady" from Carl Goldberg or the "Riser 2M" from SIG Mfg.
Also, take a look here; http://www.skybench.com/
Most of these are "Nostalgia" glider kits and partial (short) kits of gliders from the 1970's, in other words, all-balsa, (usually) polyhedral wing, rudder/elevator (some have spoilers added) and a few have aileron control. These were designed and flown before that introduction of composite construction and are sometimes called "Woodies", "Gasbags" or "Floaters" as a reference to their light weight and somewhat fragile construction.
Most gliders, regardless of their construction, last a long time. Unless there's a flyaway or total loss of control- high speed crash, they rarely need major repair. Because of the low flight speeds, light wing loading and gentle flying characteristics, it's not often they self-destruct.
Good Luck and Thermals!
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Old 02-06-2008, 04:56 PM
  #43  
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Thanks for the advice, and I will start a thread on plans for a first glider. Thanks alot

Tim
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Old 04-12-2008, 11:49 AM
  #44  
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What model hi-starts are people using and what planes are you launching. Let's get some user experience reports if we can.
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Old 10-09-2008, 09:24 AM
  #45  
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PLAYING WITH YOUR LAUNCH SETTINGS

A few weeks ago we were flying in about 12 MPH winds with gusts to 20. Lift
was there and we were having fun. However the winch battery gave out.

No more fun? Not a chance!

I always carry my hi-start in my car just in case we have a winch problem. So
out comes the hi-start. This was going to be the first time I had launched my
Supra off a hi-start. This is a NE Sailplanes XL hi-start so it is very strong,
giving me about 24 pounds of pull on the launch, or about 6X my 4 pound plane.

With a 12+ mph breeze I expected a good launch.

I hit my launch setting and just as I threw the plane the wind speed picked up.
The Supra went up at about an 80 degree angle but the wind was pushing back
against the hi-start. The plane was now slightly behind me as it climbed and, as
luck would have it, directly in the sun. It was an interesting launch, to say
the least, and I got pretty good height. But I can do better!

Next time I launched I left the launch mix off. I did this twice. The climb was
not quite as steep but it was faster. I actually got a better launch and a
little zoom at the end. But I can do better.

For the next series I launched without the launch mix, throwing up at about 45
degrees, then once the plane was about 50 feet up, moving quickly, I flipped on
the launch mix. With the greater speed and the later application of the flaps my
launch was higher still. Before I went for the zoom I switched to reflex,
gained speed and up it went! This is the same zoom techniques I use on the
winch. It did not match the super zoom of the winch, but this was my highest
launch.

After a couple more launches like this I was getting pretty high launches off
this 100 feet of rubber and 400 feet of line. But I can do better!

So I added another 100 feet of line to the hi-start. I continued to add the
launch mix at about 50 feet. The wind carried the extra line with no problem
and I got the highest launch yet. I also tried leaving the launch mix off and
using my thermal camber mix instead. That was an improvement over no launch mix
but I am not sure if it was as high as the late application of my flap/aileron
launch mix.

By time I had completed about 12 launches with various settings and line
configurations I think I was getting about 80% of my winch launches. Basically I
lacked some the powerful zoom that I can get out of Supra when using the winch.
But I was very satisfied with the experience and learned a lot about the effect
of when and how to use the launch mix for best effect.

The net net of this story? Experiment! Play! Try new things and see what
works for you. And if you find a good combination, please post it here so
others can give it a try.

Clear skies and safe flying!
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:22 PM
  #46  
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Any new glider pilots launching with a hi-start?

Share your experience as well as any tips.
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:46 PM
  #47  
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THE EFFECT OF CG ON HIGH-START LAUNCHING

Let me share an experinece I had yesterday to illustrate a point. And I am going to take you through my thought processes as I discovered and corrected the problem.

My main planes are a Supra and an AVA. I use these for contest flying in the Eastern Soaring League where I launch off winches. My Thermal Dancer has been relegated to a back-up plane position. I had not flown it in months, but I had it out yesterday. What I relate here was experienced on a winch, but it applies to HS launching as well. What we are giont to discuss is the impact of moving the CG.

Before I launched the plane, I did a hand throw. Seemed it needed a couple clicks of up to give me the glide I wanted. Having done that and completing a good range check, it was time to launch. Well I popped off 3 times in a row. Once I did get the plane in the air, it was flying very poorly. A dive test indicated the plane was nose heavy.

I have done several repairs to the nose and fuselage area of the Thermal Dancer over the time I have owned it. This has resulted in the plane becoming somewhat nose heavy. Since I have no removeable weight in the nose, I added 1/4 oz of lead to the tail over a year ago.

After some trial and error, I realized the tail weight was missing and added it back. I added 7 grams, about 1/4 oz, right in front of the verticle fin. This would be like taking about 3/4 to 1 oz of weight out of the nose. This sifted the CG back, giving my plane a much better balance. Several hand throws confirmed this and allowed me to adjust the elevator trim, removing several clicks of up trim. Now I was getting a nice smooth glide.

Now I was getting great launches and the plane was flying much better. WHY

Because the plane was nose heavy, this CG was shifted forward, as compred to my normal CG. This effectively moves the hook position rearward in relation to the CG. I may have actually had the hook behind the CG. The further back the hook, relative to the CG, the more unstable the plane becomes on launch. Most people have the hook 3/8 to 1/8 inch in front of the CG. On my competition planes I have it right on the CG. But having it behind the CG makes for extremely difficult to control launches and a great tendency to pop-off.

By putting that weight on the tail, I effectively shifted the CG rearward. Now the hook was back in its proper position relative to the CG and the launches were as I expected them to be, straight, steep and high.

The second issue that comes up is that a nose heavy plane requires a lot of up elevator trim. That up trim on the elevator can become very effective at the speeds that a hi-start produces during the launch. This can lead to pop-offs. By shifting the CG back, I was able to remove some of that up trim, thus removing my tendancy to over rotate and pop-off.

I share these experiences because they apply equally to the hi-start and to the winch. The position of the hook, relative to the CG is critical to a smooth, high launch. If you change the CG of your plane, be aware of how this will change the relative position of the hook.

If you have a high tendency to pop-off on launch, consider that your plane might be nose heavy. Or, if you like the balance of your plane, consider setting up a launch mix that adds a few clicks of down elevator during the launch. This will prevent that over rotation during the critical first 50 feet of the launch. You can flip that mix off somewhere along the arch of the launch.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:03 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
Any new glider pilots launching with a hi-start?

Share your experience as well as any tips.
Well I'm about ready to try it but I'm afraid I'll destroy my first glider I built a couple weeks ago, because I'm not getting good hand launch flights yet. So I have some questions. The plane is an EasyGlider Pro, built without a motor.

When I hand launch, if I give it a good throw, the plane noses up, stalls, and crashes immediately. I've trimmed the elevator down and put the battery as far forward as it will go, and it still behaves like this. I don't know if this is a problem with the way I'm throwing it or with the way it's trimmed or what.

Also, the plane tends to roll and yaw left significantly. By trimming the rudder and ailerons, I've been able to compensate this mostly, but the trim seems excessive. I've looked quite a bit at how true and straight the plane is put together, and if anything, it looks to me like the slight curve in the body which is visible when you sight down the underside of the plane should cause yaw in the opposite direction. So I'm not sure what's going on with that, either.

Any advice for me? I'm afraid to hi-start without a plane that seems to behave well under hand launch (as duly warned), and I'm not sure if I'm there yet or not.

Thanks for any advice!
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:34 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by eastbay View Post

Also, the plane tends to roll and yaw left significantly.

By trimming the rudder and ailerons, I've been able to compensate this mostly, but the trim seems excessive. I've looked quite a bit at how true and straight the plane is put together, and if anything, it looks to me like the slight curve in the body which is visible when you sight down the underside of the plane should cause yaw in the opposite direction. So I'm not sure what's going on with that, either.

!
If you have a twist in the fuse you have almost no hope of getting a good launch or a good flight. You have to fix it.

I suggest you start a thread asking for help to straighten out the Easy Glider Pro.

Take a lot of pictures. Try to get the shots such that we can see the twists. Make sure you get shots of the h-stab placement. Then we can get some idea of how to fix them.

Don't post them here, start a new thread focused on your plane.


Originally Posted by eastbay View Post
When I hand launch, if I give it a good throw, the plane noses up, stalls, and crashes immediately. I've trimmed the elevator down and put the battery as far forward as it will go, and it still behaves like this. I don't know if this is a problem with the way I'm throwing it or with the way it's trimmed or what.

Thanks for any advice!
Once you have it straight, then start over.

1) Make sure all surfaces are even with the wing, v and h stabs. These should be centered with the radio trims centered. Remember you have to do this with the radio turned on.

2) Make sure the CG is set where the instructions say it should be. If you were moving the battery forward to resolve this problem, but doing that will actually make things worse.

3) Make sure the surface throws are set to the throws recommended in the instructions.

NOW you are ready to try the throw again. Let's go over the throw.

A) Calm conditions and certainly no more than 5 mph breeze. Any more than that and you will not get a true reading.

B) I like to do these first throws over tall grass, or the softest area I can find so if it goes badly the damage is minimized.

C) Make sure all surfaces are moving properly. Since you are having a dive problem, tripple check the elevator. Pull sthe stick and make sure that surface goes up.


Now the throw.

FLAT FLAT FLAT - Don't throw up, not even a little bit. Throw it firmly, into the wind and throw it flat. Think darts, not baseball.

The best is to have someone else throw it for you so you can be ready on the sticks. It should glide out straight and pretty flat for 100 feet or so.

If it should nose up, then be ready to level it to slightly down so that it does not lose speed.

If this doesn't work, I hope you can find an experienced pilot who can check over the plane?
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:18 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by AEAJR View Post
If you have a twist in the fuse you have almost no hope of getting a good launch or a good flight. You have to fix it.

I suggest you start a thread asking for help to straighten out the Easy Glider Pro.
Really appreciate the detailed feedback. I will start a new thread as you've suggested.

Thanks!
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