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B-47 1/16th Scale, 6 EDF Model

Old 08-29-2010, 03:16 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Dave,

Looking good....I can tell you are running shy on patience...ready to fly it aren't you .

You finish...aka buff or sand Flite-Metal off the airfame. On a model this small you could easily match the finish of a B-47 in seconds per panel. Tape Flite-Metal down to a perfectly smooth surface...glass or aluminum sheet and wet sand with 300. In seconds its "The Look Of The Real Thing".

The alloy density and tint has to be compressed for a 1:16th scale B-47. Application to a B-47 is in narrow wrap around panels from the bottom up on the fuselage aft of the cockpit. Application from this point forward is top down in narrow panels.
Why don't you start your own thread if you want to sell something.
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Old 08-29-2010, 03:24 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by park View Post
Why don't you start your own thread if you want to sell something.
Sell something? I was going to give Dave all the Flite-Metal for his project and he decided he'd paint it. You're obviously new...
to EDF. You always make friends this way? Never mind... I just read your signature tag line....surprise, surprise...

Have an absolutely wonderful day tomorrow.

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Old 08-29-2010, 05:06 AM
  #103  
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Hi Gang!

Hey! I took no offense at Ed's comments/offer on the covering; he's a great model builder, and a good 'correspondent'. We're on different scales/tracts on the B-47, but he has been very helpful, so keep your eye on the end of the runway.

Took a whole bunch of photos of the (Seattle) Museum of Flight B-47 this morning - on the way to join my ex-pat-Brit pal, who is helping build the full-scale replica of the Douglas 'Around-the-World-Cruiser' - it's nearly done, and currently resides in Boeing's old Plant 2, where I first went to work in June 1951 building templates for the B-52; in fact, the 'Cruiser' is currently being assembled in the same Plant 2 factory bay where I worked on the X- and Y-B-52. The World Cruiser is (according to my pal) expected to be finished in about 2-4 months, with the duplicate 'Round-the World' cruise scheduled to start sometime after that. The structure and all the details look like one of our models, but this is a full-scale aircraft - absolutely amazing!!! Photos are available if any interest.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 08-29-2010, 05:22 AM
  #104  
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I for one would like copies of the Douglas Cruiser images.

As for our low flying cruiser... I love it when someone reads a snippet then drops a bomb or two amidst a thread that's as long
as these have gotten.

Hey, do you like Avro Vulcans? Mark Taylor in the UK is about to start one...I sent a ton of stuff his way this evening. There is a
1:33rd scale Vulcan card stock model as a free online download... Its a .pdf so you can enlarge it to the max...

If you want to bifurcate the inboard B-47 nacelles I can send you templates for the inlet and exhaust. What fan did you decide to use?
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:04 PM
  #105  
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Default B-47E External Wing Tank

Hi B-47ers!

I'm about ready to give up on the guy whom I asked for info on the B-47 airfoil; maybe he's no longer doing that sort of thing.

So, I've more/less got the LH external fuel tank ready to assemble and paint; see attached photos. The nose and tail cones are just pink foam; the center body is some 'light-weight' model rocket tubing I got from Apogee (they sell model rocket stuff, and are really prompt in sending the items I've ordered). Have to look for some water-soluble aluminum spray paint, as I don't intend to cover the tanks with heat-shrink fabric; and no 'glass.' I'll give the nose/tail cones several coats of clear spray polycrylic before the al coats.

More later,

Dave P.
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Old 09-06-2010, 11:23 PM
  #106  
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This is the BAC airfoil validated by the BAC drawing as well as two software results. This plot is possible using the plot driver accompanying the online application:
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:41 AM
  #107  
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Default B-47E Airfoil

Hi Ed!

I believe there is some confusion concerning the B-47 airfoil, but I have no way to resolve the issue.

In David Lednicer's listing, the B-47 wing airfoil is given as either "BAC 145" or "NACA 64A(.225)12mod". Lednicer had previously sent me the coordinates for the NACA airfoil; these are somewhat different than the coordinates listed on Boeing's airfoil-listing document (D-5707 A, pg 145.1) for BAC 145. I've done a bit of searching, but can find only one reference that gives the B-47 airfoil (Wapedia); it identifies the NACA airfoil for the aircraft, but gives no clues as to where the information came from.

I also received a short email from Boeing Archives office many months ago that indicated the B-47's airfoil was BAC 145.

I never did find any reference that indicated that the BAC XXX airfoil was used on the B-47.

I've sent several emails to Lednicer asking if he could provide any source for his information, but he no longer responds to email inquiries I guess.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:55 AM
  #108  
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Default BAC145 & NACA64(1)-212ModA

BAC145:



NACA 64(1)-212 MOD A:

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Old 09-07-2010, 03:28 AM
  #109  
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Default B-47 Wing Airfoil

Hi Ed!

Charge on! I can't see that you have any definitive references/sources for your choice of airfoil, but who cares???

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:15 AM
  #110  
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Default Real Resource Deficit Exists

Dave,

I guess I misunderstood you were having difficulty obtaining the two airfoils. As you pointed out, whether you use a replica of
the 1:1 airfoil is of no consequence. My reason for using the BAC145 is to gain lift while maintaining 5.5 to 6 deg of incidence...
as can be seen, its "flat" for 2/3 its length.

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Old 09-12-2010, 06:32 AM
  #111  
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Default B-47E Wing Parameters

Hi B-47ers!

Well, I've closed my book on the B-47E airfoil conundrum - never had a response from D. Lednicer, so no use fretting about that issue.

I've spent a little time trying to figure out where the wing aerodynamic center is located, the length/location of the M.A.C., and a few other little details. I've used Boeing drawing 35-1928, Rev. A, and the little drawings from T.O. 1B-47E-2-1; I think these are the same references that Flite Metal is using, but I'm not completely sure; at any rate, they are all I have.

The Boeing drawing was sent to me in a couple/several email attachments from the Boeing Archives office; so, no surprise, there is a certain amount of optical distortion present in the 'patches' they sent. This drawing is not a dimensioned drawing; it apparently was drafted for production of some 'sales' models (??), but is clearly based on some of the original engineering drawings/data for the B-47E; the original drawing was drafted 1Nov56 (I don't know the date for Rev. A, because the images Boeing Archives sent cut off that information).

There are station, water, and buttock lines shown on the 35-1928 drawing, and these are for the full-scale aircraft (according to a note on the drawing). Thus, one can make a reasonably good guess at the distance that fuselage station 'zero' is located forward of the 'physical nose' of the model, which is approximately defined as station 44.5 (Boeing normal engineering practice was to locate fuselage station zero some distance forward of the physical aircraft nose so that configuration changes could be accommodated without having to make changes to other station lines, etc.).

According to several references, the wing sweep angle (at quarter chord) was 35 degrees; this is confirmed fairly well with the copy of the drawing I pasted together (measured 35.25 degrees at quarter chord). The sweep angle of the leading edge (given on the T.O. 1B-47E drawing - 36.63 degrees) is a little off in my drawing - it measures 37.25 degrees; not a big difference, I guess; and who knows where the T.O. writer(s)/illustrator(s) got their data?? Probably the quarter-chord spec is the best reference and building guide.

In any event, after fussing around, and ignoring the small triangular wing trailing edge area at the OML of the fuselage, I got a full-scale MAC of 159 inches using Martin Simon's (4th Edition) geometric method, vs 157.1 inches calculated; this should yield a MAC of about 9.88 on my enlarged copy (of the Boeing drawing), but I measured about 9.73. The MAC is located 309 inches from the aircraft centerline (Simon method) vs 300.2 calculated - maybe due to drawing 'aberrations' ??? The aerodynamic center (per the Simon method) is located at station 631; center of mass is someplace close to this - good enough for a starting point.

Well, this is all sort of boring, I guess, but it does illustrate the problems one runs into when dealing with less than totally-reliable source material.

I've received 2 fans, and will first try to figure out how to put these little buggers together before charging off on the wing. I've got the wing tanks about ready to assemble/finish, and will try to add some photos of at least one of these monsters in the near future.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Last edited by Capt. Midnight; 09-12-2010 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Correct value
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Old 09-12-2010, 07:15 PM
  #112  
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Dave and Ed, just want to thank you both for your very entertaining and informative posts on the B-47. It is such a pivotal aircraft for the early jet age- allowed Boeing to bet big money on the 707 passenger jet if I recall. Thanks again guys.

Bob
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:51 AM
  #113  
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Default General Layout Measured Dims

Dave,

I believe this might be one of the things you were looking for earlier. Note the Bu.No. index.

Also, here is the sweep angles for the vertical fin and horiz. Stab per the manual.



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Old 09-14-2010, 07:37 AM
  #114  
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Default B-47E Drawings

Hi Ed!

That 'drawing' from the -2 T.O. is the same one I've had from the beginning of my efforts - I'm not convinced it is all that accurate, but have no way to confirm/refute any of the information (I think there are some dimensional errors in the drawing). One of these days I'm going to go to the (Seattle) Museum of Flight and look at their 'hard-copy' of this manual.

My experience with T.O. writers from my Boeing days on military aircraft/missile projects (1951-1991, with time out for USAF service) convinces me that the information is probably generally correct, but in no way could it be considered 'cast in aluminum.' I didn't have any problems with the sweepback angles on the vert. and horiz. stab., but some other references give slightly different angular values - but who cares!!! Also, sweepback angles are generally, but not, I guess, universally referenced to quarter chords. And, at the model sizes we're building, some little difference in angular alignment of the leading edges of these surfaces (vis-a-vis the aircraft) couldn't possibly affect model flight performance. Bottom line is that my empenage is committed in balsa, so I don't care about a little uncertainty in the angular sweep of the vert./horiz. stab. leading edges.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:13 PM
  #115  
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Errors in drawings from Boeing and AirAge.

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Old 09-16-2010, 06:14 AM
  #116  
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Default B-47E Drawings

Hi Ed!

Nope, I think the conflicts are between the dimensions given on the drawing from the -2-1 T.O. and the information on the Boeing model drawing (35-1928); you can cross-check some of the dimensions vis-a-vis the station #s on the -1928 drawing if you have time/interest. Since the station, buttock, and water-line values given on the -1928 drawing are supposed to be referenced from the aircraft drawings/data, I tend to accept them over the T.O. dimensions. It's a pity that Boeing Archives can't provide a more accurate dimensioned 3-view of the aircraft, as I just don't know how much faith to put on the model drawing. Not sure this is a big deal; just part of the 'Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle' applied to scratch model building.

I've been plinking along on the #2/3 engine pod, and finally got an inlet and outlet fab'd from an assortment of bits/pieces; photo attached. The inlet is cut down from some kind of 'bottle' I got at my local Tap Plastics outlet. I had to layout the exit cone and fab'd it from 1/64th mahog. sheet wrapped in 0.010 plastic sheet; it seems to be reasonably stiff, and will probably be OK. I'm waiting on arrival of an ESC to crank up one of the fans, so will see what happens.

Cheers,

Dave P.

Last edited by Capt. Midnight; 09-16-2010 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Add photo
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:36 AM
  #117  
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That's what I said, between the last two we found. I suspected this would be the case because of the huge difference in attention
to detail between the two. When I compared the first one below to the Model Airplane News "Planes Worth Modeling" it was virtually
the same so I used it. Note the extra fuel tank support pylon on the M.A.N. drawing. Symmetry is always an assumptive default.

I suspected the general appearance of the second drawing from day one, though I believe the CG to be correct compared to the
location on the Tu-95. The T.O. 1B-47E-2-2 CG declaration is virtually the same as the Tu-95.

I have the two Palo Alto R/C online CG calculators which proved to be quite accurate. When George was CG'n the Tu-95 it turned
out the results were correct. But only after our beating on it for a while. George built a small hand launch glider to test...it proved
to work fine. I had BB Weber's larger Tu-95 to compare to the calculator result. I didn't trust the CG declaration on the plan...only
BB's Tu-95 many successful flights...still the calculator had us going when the CG was behind the wing root.

It was only after George's success with the Tu-95 wing flex that I decided to go forward since the Tu-95's a virutal mirror of a B-47.
Ironically, the wing consumes the greatest energy as Sam and I move forward. When the flap is resolved I will send you details. I'll
have that resolve shortly.

Do you agree with the aileron upper surface disclosure observed on the exploded wing view? It appears on the Planes Worth Modeling
drawing... I'm reviewing BAC assembly floor photos looking for an assembled aileron awaiting its installation.

Its 3:21 AM and I suspect that's George...viewing as a guest....Good morning George. Well the B-17 gathering starts today so I will
be down in the trenches for the next three days

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Old 09-20-2010, 07:11 AM
  #118  
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Default B-47E #2/#3 Engine Pod and Tank

Hi B-47ers!

Previous attempt to add photo was rejected; don't know why. Will try to add 3 to this post.

All I can say is that the Boeing tool makers must have had bad dreams when they were making the master tools and templates for this aircraft!! The ogives on the engine pods are nightmarish, to say the least!!

I've got the #2/#3 pod sorta well along - top side wasn't too hard, but the lower surfaces are a ... challenge: see photos attached (I hope). Need some wire so I can route the motor wires through the pylon (got the retract wire through OK).

Also got the external wing tanks more/less finished; need to add the struts - later.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 09-26-2010, 07:22 AM
  #119  
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Default B-47E #2/#3 Engine Pod

Hi B-47ers!

The #2/#3 engine pod is more/less complete (not finished, of course); still a little cleanup to do, and need to make final decision on securing the fans to the tubes (forward/lower fan arms secured by screws to support structure, but the forward/upper half is a bit more difficult - hate to used adhesive, as I would like to be able to remove the fans); have to figure out some sort of attachment scheme. Gear doors are torque-spring opened; need to figure out a closing scheme. Couple of photos below.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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Old 11-11-2010, 02:22 PM
  #120  
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Default War Of The Pylons

Dave,

How goes the wonderful world of pylons?
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:36 AM
  #121  
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Default Update

Hi B-47ers!

Sorry for the long 'time-out' - wife's medical tests, T-Day, and other assorted excuses.

I'm not sure whether to throw in the towel on this puppy yet, but will know in the next several days (finally got my 4S1P/5000 LiPo from HobbyKing, a new Hyperion charger (that's really short in the instruction-manual department - especially for us old guys).

I did manage to make several 'all-up' tests of the #2/#3-engine pod using some A123s and other assorted stuff from the battery box; got a not-too-encouraging 2.25-lb thrust (average), but the batt. voltage was not quite what I should get from the LiPo. So, as soon as I get my explosion/thermal-proof container built (next day or 2), I'll charge the LiPo and make some tests.

The pod gear retracts OK, and finally got the thing to function with the long-thin retract strut that kind of angles up from the front of the gear strut. Could not figure out (yet, anyway) how to incorporate the small section of the pod doors that is (in the full-size) fastened to the aft side of the gear strut - later. The doors are opened with small torque springs, and (hopefully) will close with some sort of magic thread that the gear strut contacts.

Have completed the two external wing tanks, but forgot to snap a photo - later. Photo of the #2/#3 pod is below: this is sort of a prototype (70mm fans), and painted to show kind of what it would look like. Haven't sawed off the 'ears' from the 2 fans - will do this if the thrust test is promising. The engine profiles are not per 'spec', but at this stage I'm just interested in the thrust.

More later, and happy holidays to you all!!

Dave P.
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:55 AM
  #122  
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Default Thrust Measurement Update

Hi B-47ers!

Well, I hooked up the 4S1P x 5000 LiPo to the #2/#3 pod (battery powers both fans) and made several tests; test setup shown below.

The results were (avg.) 1.4kg/3.1 lbs; battery start voltage was ca 15.1; end voltage about 14.9. I did not try to measure the power level.

If the other 4 motor/fans gave comparable results, this would yield about 9 lbs total static thrust - and if I could keep the AUW at ca 15-16 lbs, this led sled might get off a hard-surface runway. Will go to the soul-search mode and see if I really want to continue this puppy.

Cheers, and happy holidays,

Dave P.
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Old 12-29-2010, 09:01 AM
  #123  
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Talking More information?

Hello Capt. Midnight,

I just found your thread and I am very impressed with the construction of your aircraft. Your cockpit is excellent.

I may have some of the resource information that would assist you in the
planning and design. Your thread shows several contacts with Dave C.
He certainly has a massive amount of material and knowledge about the
airplane and how to construct a scale replica.

Since you were a pilot and may have had some engineering experience the two of us might come close to being on the same page as far as details of
operating the real thing. Unfortunately, I have no hands on experience with
the Stratojet or comparable large aircraft but I would enjoy sharing the insights and references that I possess.

If you are interested send me a message and let me know if there is any
way that I might assist you. Questions, Yes. Correct answers, We will do our best. Answers requiring thought, Those may take a little more time.

Happy Holidays,

Mike
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Old 01-01-2011, 10:14 PM
  #124  
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Default Happy New Year ! ! !

Dave,

Happy New Year ! ! !

I pray that 2011 is filled with excellent resolution of your family's health challenges.

At 3.1# for each of the inboard pylons and another 1.55# for each of the outboard IMHO you should see excellent results with
an AUW of 15#.

Duration is the issue at hand for both of us. New iron annode technology should give us a 40% gain in capacity with a battery
weight reduction of 25% to 30%. It is not an issue I am forced to address for another couple of months.




Sam ordered and received one of the Cellpro PowerLab 8's we will use on the 10.2%. With our batteries it takes a pair of these
and a pair of deep cycle marine batteries to get the job done in a timely fashion.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:06 PM
  #125  
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Default Happy New Year

Hi Ed and other B-47ers!

I hope you all had great holidays, and best wishes for a great New Year!!

Ed: thanks for the comment. Progress has been minimal over the holidays, but I've made a little 'dent' in the LH wing, and will post a couple of photos in the next few days. I hope you and your partner(s) continue to make good progress on your model.

Cheers,

Dave P.
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