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Old 02-13-2017, 12:12 AM   #1
Bald Paul
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Default Another project (and not even my idea!)

I brought the Snafuey II, with my interchangeable wings, to the field the other day. One of the flyers was intrigued with the design concept (one fuselage, multiple airfoils) and asked me if I could design a high wing trainer with a 'beginner' wing and a more advanced wing. The idea is to have a fuselage/wing that you could learn to fly with, and then change the wing out when you were ready to start learning some aerobatics.

I found plans for the RCM Advanced Trainer II on Outerzone (they were even in CAD!) and I think with some small changes, the cabin section could become part of the wing, allowing the use of the symmetrical airfoil (as shown on the plans) and a flat bottomed airfoil with additional dihedral for a more stable, basic trainer platform.

I'll be converting the plan to accommodate electric power, of course, as well as incorporating tab and slot construction design to make assembly of the resulting laser cut 'short kit' easier.

So, what do you think? Is this a worthwhile venture? Is it something anyone would be interested in, perhaps as a 'club trainer' plane?


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Old 02-13-2017, 02:42 AM   #2
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You could set up the fuselage with the contour for the symmetrical wing, and then build just the center section, of the flat bottom wing that contacts the fuselage with a symmetrical section.

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Old 02-13-2017, 12:13 PM   #3
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Though there is really no reason why a trainer couldn't use a symmetrical, or 'near symmetrical' airfoil. The only difference that would probably want to make is dihedral, the trainer would want some but the aerobatic plane wouldn't. That could possibly be done by simply using a two part wing with different joiners for dihedral, or not. That would save having to build two wings.

Longitudinal stability can be adjusted by CG positions (forward CG when in trainer mode, rearward for aerobatic) and is independent of airfoil.
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Old 02-13-2017, 01:23 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
You could set up the fuselage with the contour for the symmetrical wing, and then build just the center section, of the flat bottom wing that contacts the fuselage with a symmetrical section.
That part is easy. I've already done it with the Snafuey II. The center section of the wing is actually part of the fuselage, and fits the fuselage without consideration of the airfoil.

On the RCM Advanced Trainer, the 'cabin' portion would be part of the wing, so the mating surfaces to the fuselage would be relatively straight.


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Old 02-13-2017, 01:34 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Though there is really no reason why a trainer couldn't use a symmetrical, or 'near symmetrical' airfoil. The only difference that would probably want to make is dihedral, the trainer would want some but the aerobatic plane wouldn't. That could possibly be done by simply using a two part wing with different joiners for dihedral, or not. That would save having to build two wings.
Most trainer type planes use a flat or semi-symmetrical airfoils. They develop more lift, but inverted flight is difficult. Symmetrical airfoils depend more on AOA for lift and are much better when inverted.

By using the center box style mount, the amount of dihedral is easy to set up. On the Snafuey II, one wing has a flat bottom airfoil and about 1.5" of dihedral at each wingtip. The second wing is semi-symmetrical, with about 0.75" dihedral at each wingtip. There is a noticeable difference in the way the plane flys between the two.


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Old 02-13-2017, 01:56 PM   #6
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yeah, I fully understand the attributes of different airfoils. Yes a 'flat bottom' can make more lift than a symmetrical but a plane only needs enough lift to be able to fly, this isn't a heavy lifting contest. A flat bottom will mean that the plane will have a little slower stall speed but the difference isn't huge and providing the plane is built reasonably light it will still fly plenty slow enough on a symmetrical airfoil.. Look at 3D models for example.

Many trainers these days have airfoils that are symmetrical, or close to symmetrical. IMHO the traditional style flat bottom wing was as much for ease of building as it was about flight characteristics. Ease of building of course is still a valid point if it's a built up balsa wing.
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:21 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
IMHO the traditional style flat bottom wing was as much for ease of building as it was about flight characteristics. Ease of building of course is still a valid point if it's a built up balsa wing.
Ease of building is something I always consider in design. I use 'breakaway' tabs to assist in building a straight wing.


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Old 02-13-2017, 08:52 PM   #8
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Since this appears to be a high wing plane, when you want it to be more aerobatic, do not just take the dihedral out, put in some negative dihedral. This will tend to make it neutrally stable in roll axis and make aerobatics much easier.
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Old 03-15-2017, 01:47 PM   #9
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Progress has been slow, mostly due to multiple other projects (non-RC related) going on simultaneously.

However, here is a rough idea of how I plan to build this plane. The gray areas (wing and cabin areas) are going to be one piece. Wing bolts attach through reinforced plates at the rear of the cabin area.

Still working on the wing rib details. I plan on using two aileron servos, and one servo, connected via 90 deg bellcranks, to control the flaps. I have to purchase the bellcranks first to get some measurements so the center of the servo shaft is midway between the bellcrank pivots and the linkage attachment points.

Once the side views are done, I start working on the vertical views of the fuselage and wing. From there I can get my fuse formers, and wing LE and TE designed.


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Old 03-16-2017, 11:54 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
I brought the Snafuey II, with my interchangeable wings, to the field the other day. One of the flyers was intrigued with the design concept (one fuselage, multiple airfoils) and asked me if I could design a high wing trainer with a 'beginner' wing and a more advanced wing. The idea is to have a fuselage/wing that you could learn to fly with, and then change the wing out when you were ready to start learning some aerobatics.

I found plans for the RCM Advanced Trainer II on Outerzone (they were even in CAD!) and I think with some small changes, the cabin section could become part of the wing, allowing the use of the symmetrical airfoil (as shown on the plans) and a flat bottomed airfoil with additional dihedral for a more stable, basic trainer platform.

I'll be converting the plan to accommodate electric power, of course, as well as incorporating tab and slot construction design to make assembly of the resulting laser cut 'short kit' easier.

So, what do you think? Is this a worthwhile venture? Is it something anyone would be interested in, perhaps as a 'club trainer' plane?
You really dont need 2 wing, one symmetrical and one flat bottom, Best thing to do IMHO is to build a FAT symmetrical wing why symmetrical wings have more lift than a flat wing, a flat wing for a beginner is silly, the plane has to be landed faster because of less lift with a flat wing, flat wings are Horrible for any Aerobatics, a flat wing really does not help a beginner, it makes flying harder, a thicker Symmetrical will give better lift and be perfect for mild Aerobatics, if fact, build the plane as a mid wing for better aerobatics, with a trike landing gear, for learning to fly, set the CG at 25%, that will be the easiest plane for a beginner to fly and they will be able to keep learning with that plane by moving the cg back a little when a person gets some stick time in, also make it a straight wing with no dihedral also add some wing tips to the edge of the wing made out of plywood so it touches the ground to prevent the wing ends from scraping on the ground, Just my 2 cents worth

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Old 03-16-2017, 01:14 PM   #11
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Well, as they say, opinions may vary:

http://2bfly.com/knowledgebase/airplanes/airfoils/

http://www.hooked-on-rc-airplanes.com/rc-trainer.html

Really, all I asked when starting this thread is if anyone thought designing an easy to build, laser cut short kit of a stable trainer type plane that could be upgraded for more aerobatic flight by changing a wing would generate any interest.

So far, the response has been pretty much that it's not necessary, since I could build it as a high wing / shoulder wing with flat bottom / semi symmetrical / thick symmetrical airfoil with lots of / zero / negative dihedral.

Yeah, I'll get right on that. :-(

For the record, I'm going to be building this with the same symmetrical airfoil as per the plans, with the same amount of dihedral. If anyone at the club asks for a 'trainer' version, the wing will be flat bottom with increased dihedral.

That's my plan, and I'm sticking to it. :-P

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Old 03-24-2017, 04:43 PM   #12
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CAD work completed, a laser cut short kit is on it's way, all components (except covering material - still working on a color scheme in my head) are either in hand or on order, and a plans sheet is being printed out full size. I even picked up a Mobius mini camera and designed in a mount system for some on-board video (recorded, not FPV.) The bench and building board are cleaned off and ready.
I doubt I'll go through the trouble of taking pictures and documenting the build for a build log, because nobody really seems interested in building balsa anymore. I think I'll just make some notes for myself as I go along, in case I ever want to build another.

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Old 03-24-2017, 05:21 PM   #13
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Not trying to take anything away from what you are doing but it has been done quite a while back. The Mountain Models Dandy/Dandy Sport/Dandy GT cover the high wing needs. The Mountain Models EVA Sport/3D/Bipe cover the low wing needs. One fuselage 3 different wing sets. I have both planes with all three wings and just a wing change completely transforms the flying experience. The Switchback only has the Sport and GT wings but I've also flown it with the base Dandy "glider" wing.

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Old 03-24-2017, 05:54 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Turbojoe View Post
Not trying to take anything away from what you are doing but it has been done quite a while back. The Mountain Models Dandy/Dandy Sport/Dandy GT cover the high wing needs. The Mountain Models EVA Sport/3D/Bipe cover the low wing needs. One fuselage 3 different wing sets. I have both planes with all three wings and just a wing change completely transforms the flying experience. The Switchback only has the Sport and GT wings but I've also flown it with the base Dandy "glider" wing.

Joe
Joe, I was unaware that MM made those kits. It looks like they reduce the wing area and dihedral on each as they get 'sportier'.

Do they all use the same airfoil, or do the airfoils differ?

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Old 03-24-2017, 07:22 PM   #15
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Paul,

None of the wings appear terribly sophisticated and I'm only guessing at the airfoils. The base Dandy "glider" wing appears to be a Clark-Y and the wing is tapered somewhat. The Sport wings for the Dandy and EVA are likely Clark-Y as well. The GT wings for both are semi-symmetrical as are the wings for the EVA bipe.

The EVA Sport confuses me. I have two of them and they both do something this wing shouldn't but I love it. Even with the "flat bottom" and lots of dihedral from straight and level I can flip inverted and make virtually no elevator input to maintain straight and level. Not one other airplane in my hangar will do this. Even though I have all three wing sets for the EVA I mostly fly with the Sport wings because they do everything I ask from them and then some.

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Old 03-31-2017, 01:28 PM   #16
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The build has begun. Fuselage is first, along with the center section of the wing, which is also the 'cabin' of the fuselage. So far, everything fits together as designed. This plane is large enough so there is plenty of room for standard sized servos, and my fat fingers to get them into place.

The motor will be mounted on short nylon standoffs using 10-32 cap screws. The 10-32 blind nuts are 5/16" long (barrel length) so they extend 1/16" out from the 1/4" 'firewall'. A little work with a drill press and I was able to countersink the spacers for proper fit. I had to space the nose gear block (which mounts on the other side of the firewall) out with a couple of #4 flat washers to get the block to clear the flanges on the blind nuts. If that's the biggest issue I have with assembly, I'll be happy.

I was working on color schemes, and finally decided on an orange fuse with white trim. Wing will be white on top with orange trim, and black and white checkered on the bottom. My wife just got all new quartz countertops, so I should be able to convince her to come up with some custom graphics on her crafting machines. :-)

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Old 04-01-2017, 10:41 PM   #17
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Wing halves went together with ease. I designed a notched LE and TE, and corresponding notches on the ribs (with breakaway build tabs) and it practically was self aligning. Both halves have been mounted into the cabin section with the recommended 1 3/16" dihedral at each wingtip. The linkage for the flaps is in place (not fun, but in place!) and adjusted. The aileron servo leads are barely long enough to attach to a Y harness in the cabin area, so I'll need a short servo extension to connect that to the Rx. (I probably have one somewhere, just a matter of finding it!)

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Old 04-01-2017, 11:08 PM   #18
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Default Another option

StevensAero offers the Squirt:
http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAe...K-SQRT400.html
Which is your basic 3 channel flat bottom wing high dihedral trainer. It's very light, small, and portable and quite durable. This is the plane used by the Wings Across America 2008 project (http://www.modelaircraft.org/museum/waa.aspx). I have one which I retrofitted with a small brushless motor on a stick mount. It will fly on a 2-cell 1800 mAh lipo for 45 minutes at minimum power.

Once you're ready for more advanced flying Stevens offers this full aileron wing:
http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAe...400-AWING.html

For aerobatic flying I substitute a 3-cell lipo. The power increase will let you do pretty much anything.

The design of the components is such that it can be assembled without pinning it down. The parts interlock in such a way that they are inherently aligned. You just hold them in place and add a touch of CA. It's a great little airplane.
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Old 04-07-2017, 02:12 PM   #19
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Wing and cabin structure are done. Flaps are controlled by a singe servo, with slowing module. Linkage is from the servo wheel to two 90 deg bellcranks, and from the bellcranks to the flaps. Aileron servos are mounted outboard of the flaps and leads are fed through two Estes BT-5 rocket body tubes. The tubes make changing out a servo (should it ever need it) much easier, because you don't have to try to snake the lead wire through the wing. They are also amazingly strong, and add some rigidity to the structure.


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Old 04-12-2017, 04:25 PM   #20
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When building the fuselage, I discovered a few minor design issues (seems that always happens) that I was able to correct, and went back into the CAD program to update as needed. I left my sandwich on the workbench and walked away for a few minutes. One of the dogs (I have my suspicions, but can't prove who the actual culprit was) went after the free meal, knocked the fuse off the bench, and it got destroyed on the floor. I think the 'feeding frenzy' proved too much for balsa to hold up to. So, new files have been sent out for the 'version 2.0' fuselage build. Meanwhile, the wing has been covered in Ultracote, flaps and aileron linkage installed and the initial adjustments made, and servo direction checked.

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Old 04-21-2017, 02:47 PM   #21
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The new fuselage is complete. The task list is getting shorter. Sand the fuselage, cover the horizontal stab and elevator with white Ultracote, cover the fuselage with orange Ultracote, apply the trim, check and adjust the control throws, install the battery with some velcro and a battery strap (I hope I can find one long enough to go around the huge 5s battery), and check/adjust the balance.

Then comes the scary part - the maiden flight!

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Old 04-21-2017, 10:11 PM   #22
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Nothing fancy with the covering job, but you won't see another like it at the flying field! 57 1/2" wingspan.

EDIT: battery placement in the area normally reserved for the fuel tank resulted in a grossly nose heavy situation. I was able to relocate the battery to the area under the wing, which necessitates wing removal to change the battery. A redesign of the fuselage to add battery access through the side has been finished in CAD. Updated CAD files, build plans, and a list of components used in my build, are available to anyone who wishes to build their own and can be found at: https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...%21%21/page473 (scroll to post # 7095 on that page)


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Old 04-26-2017, 06:00 PM   #23
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Default Maiden flight report

I was able to get to the flying field today. Perfect day, with very little wind.

Plane has plenty of power with the Heads Up RC recommended motor, battery, ESC, and prop. I only had to add in a few clicks of trim on elevator and ailerons to obtain hands off level flight at about half throttle. Cruised around the sky for about 6 1/2 minutes and still had plenty of battery left.

Since this is the first plane I've flown with flaps, I got to a decent altitude, slowed down to almost a stall, and deployed the flaps. Let's just say they are effective! (In fact, a little too effective. I'll be dialing them back before the next flight.) On my first landing attempt, with flaps deployed and throttle completely cut, the plane went into a straight and level glide the distance of the runway! I had to throttle up and raise flaps for another go-round. On the second attempt, the plane slowed to a crawl, then a crosswind made for a landing that was, uh, not the smoothest I've made recently!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd3z0Ko9AyU

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