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lithium manganese batteries

Old 11-13-2007, 08:27 PM
  #1  
cliffh
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Default lithium manganese batteries

I just saw an add for lithium manganese batteries (Duralite). It makes some pretty good claims such as non-flammable chemisty, high discharge rates, longer life than li-po's and high charge rates. Humm....other than the price being a little higher, they sound very good.

Does anyone have any experience with them? I'm just starting to change over from nimh to li-po's and now there is a new boy in town
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:41 PM
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Red Scholefield
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Originally Posted by cliffh View Post
I just saw an add for lithium manganese batteries (Duralite). It makes some pretty good claims such as non-flammable chemisty, high discharge rates, longer life than li-po's and high charge rates. Humm....other than the price being a little higher, they sound very good.
So did the Lithium Iron (Tadiran) batteries they peddled a few years ago.
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:38 AM
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If the ad was on line please post a link. I would like to read about them.

Last edited by bz1mcr; 11-14-2007 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:09 AM
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I believe the Apogee brand have a new 25C Lithium Manganese cell out now as well...
http://www.pfmdistribution.com/

Also the Milwaukee power tool packs are Lithium Manganese
http://www.molienergy.com/Press%20Re...ease040117.htm

Bill
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by retiredVTT View Post
I believe the Apogee brand have a new 25C Lithium Manganese cell out now as well...
http://www.pfmdistribution.com/

Also the Milwaukee power tool packs are Lithium Manganese
http://www.molienergy.com/Press%20Re...ease040117.htm

Bill
I've tried some of the new Lithium Ion batteries, and they are pretty much like going back to Nicads. Lower voltage per cell, and overall weight increase for the voltage/MAH.

3S-1P 2200 Li-Poly weight 6 Oz. 12.6 Volts
3S-1P 2300 Li-Ion weight 9.1 Oz. 10.3 Volts

This translates, depending on the motor and prop, to a reduction of about 2000 or more RPM. Which means lowered performance. To get near the same performance you would have to go to a 4S Li-Ion which increases the weight by over 1 more ounce.

I guess if you are fearful of Li-Poly, can't learn their idiosyncracies,follow good care and feeding practices, then Li-ion and Li-Manganese would be the way to go. And of course build bigger planes to carry the increased weight.

I personally have learned how to handle the Li-Poly packs safely. Make sure to not overload a pack on any given plane. Choose the MAH to enable having the packs come down cool after a flight. Use a good quality Balancing charger to insure they don't get overcharged. And they will last a long time, give great performance, and in the long run pay for themselves over and over again.
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:23 PM
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cliffh
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Originally Posted by bz1mcr View Post
If the ad was on line please post a link. I would like to read about them.
This isn't the add, but it is the company.

http://duralitebatteries.com/products/products.php
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cliffh View Post
This isn't the add, but it is the company.

http://duralitebatteries.com/products/products.php
If you notice they are devoting this technology to the support of ignitions and flight packs for the large IMAC planes. This I'm sure relates to the weight and lower voltage being less than adequate for Electric Aircraft use.

The A123 batteries are pretty good for RC cars, but so far
I'm not sold on their use in RC Electrics where weight is so important.
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:12 PM
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I have two 2S 1500mah Apogee LiMn packs. I primarily bought them to use in a 1/18 scale truck, but they do get used in two of my planes. I like the fact that they can be charged at 2C-they usually charge from empty within 40 minutes with the balancer hooked up. Compared to the 6 cell 1100mah nimh they replaced in the truck, "punch" is much better (less voltage drop under load), and there is less power fade through the discharge cycle. In plane use, yes, they're a little heavier than the equivalent capacity lipos I use, but the plane doesn't seem to notice any difference--flight performance is unaffected. I've been using lithium batteries since 2003, so I'm not afraid of them, but I think these more robust cells make sense and have a viable place in the hobby.
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:44 PM
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I purchased 2 of the A123 3S-1P Packs, and tried them in my EP Superstar that normally uses 3S-1P 2100 MAH 20C Lipos. Normally uses a 10/5 APC Prop, and draws 30 AMPS WOT. Flights are mostly at 1/2 throttle and packs come down cool.

The plane typically takes off in 20-30 ft and climbs at a 45 Degree angle. Flies well and is pretty aerobatic for a plane of this type. This is my test bed for anything new that I try.

With the A123 pack, the plane would not ROG period. It just kept going and going and wouldn't lift off. It did fly with a hand launch, but was very sluggish, and couldn't even pull into a loop. It was a constant battle to just keep it in the air. RPM was down by 2500-3000 RPM on the 10/5 APC prop.
So I tried a bigger prop, (12/6 APC) and it improved a little bit but still nowhere near the performance that it normally has. And the current went up to a point where the pack was really hot when I landed.

I didn't even bother to check the current, just went back to the Li-Po packs and had a great flying day.

So I have 2 almost new A123 Li-Ion packs 3S-1P 2300 MAH that I'd be willing to sell to anybody. For me it was a $200 lesson in futility.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:39 AM
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I'll give you $50 for the pair Dick...
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:07 PM
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I'm having great sucess with A123's in "40" sized planes and over.

They definately have their place and I wont be going back to lipos except for smaller models. They have advantages and disadvantages.

At first glance they do seem heavier than Lipos, but with Lipos I would choose say a 3000mAh battery if I wanted to extract 2300mAh at high currents. With 123's you can use the whole 2300mAh, power does not drop off untill they are spent.

A disadvantage is that when they are gone, they are gone - its like a fuel tank empying!

But the advantages of safety, 15 min charge, robustness (I've flattened them to 0V by accident and they are fine) and the high number of charge cycles, make it well worth getting motor prop combos right for your application.

I was a big advocate of Lipo's and still use em. But a few expensive mistakes have cost me dear. A123's on the other hand seem to just keep going.

As for Lithium Manganese, I'm really interested in finding more out about these.
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Old 11-16-2007, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Smiky View Post
I'll give you $50 for the pair Dick...
Make it $100 to PayPal and you have yourself a deal.

I use the FMA charger that has 123 capability, and they have been cycled once.
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DickCorby View Post
I purchased 2 of the A123 3S-1P Packs, and tried them in my EP Superstar that normally uses 3S-1P 2100 MAH 20C Lipos. Normally uses a 10/5 APC Prop, and draws 30 AMPS WOT. Flights are mostly at 1/2 throttle and packs come down cool.

The plane typically takes off in 20-30 ft and climbs at a 45 Degree angle. Flies well and is pretty aerobatic for a plane of this type. This is my test bed for anything new that I try.

With the A123 pack, the plane would not ROG period. It just kept going and going and wouldn't lift off. It did fly with a hand launch, but was very sluggish, and couldn't even pull into a loop. It was a constant battle to just keep it in the air. RPM was down by 2500-3000 RPM on the 10/5 APC prop.
So I tried a bigger prop, (12/6 APC) and it improved a little bit but still nowhere near the performance that it normally has. And the current went up to a point where the pack was really hot when I landed.

I didn't even bother to check the current, just went back to the Li-Po packs and had a great flying day.

So I have 2 almost new A123 Li-Ion packs 3S-1P 2300 MAH that I'd be willing to sell to anybody. For me it was a $200 lesson in futility.
Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but you dropped from 11.1v to 9.9v, gained probably about 2oz. weight, and there was a performance drop. Sounds about what like I would expect in that scenario.
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzbomber View Post
Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but you dropped from 11.1v to 9.9v, gained probably about 2oz. weight, and there was a performance drop. Sounds about what like I would expect in that scenario.
As you say, replace 11.1 with 9.9 and you have the obvious!!
Building a three cell lion and you are building a three legged dog.

I haven't bought the A123 because of the cost,, so I built my own from Dewalt cells. I use the lipos for the smaller craft. The only problems I have had with lipos were my own mistakes. Haven't burned anything yet.

The A123/Dewalt have a definite safety factor and that say's a lot. For some people it would be better to go with the larger craft and the safety of these batteries.

.................................................. ...............................
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:50 PM
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Thumbs up Know when to say, "I will change."

In the 5 years I have been retired, my sense of smell, setting the charger, REMEMBERING to check on the charger (at least once a day ) have all slowely gone down the tube!!!!!!

Even NIMH is not safe on a 30 hr charge.--------
Converting to LIFEPO4.
Be reckless not to.

That is why I ask so damm many stupid questions about them.

Rich
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
In the 5 years I have been retired, my sense of smell, setting the charger, REMEMBERING to check on the charger (at least once a day ) have all slowely gone down the tube!!!!!!

Even NIMH is not safe on a 30 hr charge.--------
Converting to LIFEPO4.
Be reckless not to.

That is why I ask so damm many stupid questions about them.

Rich
Im 75 this year and know where you are coming from

So I bought an FMA Li=Po charger that wont allow overcharging etc. and I don't have to remember a thing. Most of the better chargers nowadays will auto shutoff when the appropriate voltage is reached.

One good thing about being 75, I have a bit more discretionary funds to spend to help overcome the failings of being 75.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ragbag View Post

I haven't bought the A123 because of the cost,, so I built my own from Dewalt cells. I use the lipos for the smaller craft. The only problems I have had with lipos were my own mistakes. Haven't burned anything yet.
.................................................. ...............................
A good 3S-1P 20C Li-Po pack is not that much cheaper than the A123's, so the price isn't the major factor. Its the increased weight and lowered voltage that I have problems with.
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Old 11-20-2007, 03:14 AM
  #18  
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I have had a couple of Lithium Manganese battery packs for a couple of years, and I love them. Or should I say loved them: A guy put his hands in the innerds of my Goldberg Eagle (where I had the batteries on an Astro Cobalt geared 25), when he got through messing around, smoke was everywhere, and two fairly expensive batteries were fried. they did not, again I repeat, they did not burst into flames. Most of the damage was from the wires and wire coverings melting. then, the guy disappeared.
Thanks a lot, huh. anyhow, I really like the things: have two new packs coming in the mail. Roger Q.
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Old 11-20-2007, 02:39 PM
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Roger that sounds like really bad luck, what a nuicance.

Could you post details of the brand and supplier of your "successful" lithium manganese cells?
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:59 PM
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AV8er: The Li-Mng batteries are from Apogee Batteries, or rather they are Apogee batteries. The web site is www.PFMDistribution.com. I have been in contact with "Bill" and I couldn't ask for better help, support and expertise.
If you buy one or more of these batteries, I hope you have as good luck as I have. And, ask about their return policy. Roger Q.
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Old 11-20-2007, 10:45 PM
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Great thanks for the info. I'm in the UK so I'll contact Apogee to see if they can supply me or a distributor over here. Looks a good company to deal with.

Thanks again.

Anyone else have any LiMn suppliers? particularly UK ones?
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Old 11-22-2007, 04:31 AM
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AV8er: I have written to Bill at Apogee and asked him about your question: do they have someone who distributes/sells their batteries in the UK. Since it is the eve before Thanksgiving, it might be Monday before we hear anything from him, but when I do, I will pass it along to you in this forum. Hope this is helpful. RogerQ
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Old 11-22-2007, 05:02 AM
  #23  
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I don't think I'd want to buy from anyone who stated this in their FAQ (my highlight)

"Q: Who's cells do you use?
A: We have partnered with multiple manufacturers around the world. All you have to know is that we select only premium cells to be used in our products and we stand behind the products we sell. You're buying Apogee because you want the best packs, period."
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Old 11-22-2007, 05:54 AM
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Smikey: First I am not upset at all about your comment: however I am not sure what you mean: I want a company that selects only the best product from the manufacturer to sell to me. I am curious about your thoughts.
Aint it fun to talk about things like this, and hopefully come up with the best ideas and products for all??? RogerQ
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Old 11-22-2007, 06:02 AM
  #25  
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Apogee makes some of the best RC car packs, and their packs are known to work well. I use them in all of my cars especially my micros and i have never had a problem with them.
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