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lithium manganese batteries

Old 12-11-2007, 03:42 AM
  #51  
everydayflyer
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The fast changing Green Line on mine is watts and the Red is RPMs.

300 Watts per Lbs. means WOT is limited to very short burst and most flying is done at approx.50 throttle.

FYI Most fly this plane with a 400 watt setup.

Here is a striped graph


Charles
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:48 AM
  #52  
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You can find Lipo & NiMH on below website:

www.sunhighbattery.diytrade.com
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:40 PM
  #53  
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most new people to the hobby will fly smaller planes. I fly the E flite Edge 540 with the new B&D 1100 cells. weight more then a lipo but guess what airplane $75.00 Esc $25, two B&D packs from wal mart $40 a little wire $5.00 4 HS55 servos $11 each
and a FMA Cellpro 4 charger that chargers in 20 mins all for
$265.00

plus a radio that is kinda cheap, really cheap if you think about it. plane flys great with that set up.... thats a GREAT neebie plane set up on low rates.


I fly a MINI edge 540 with the BIg A123 2300 packs 297 sq in wing area.
used to fly with 1700 lipo... No power 4 cell A123 pack woohoo we got some power now.. plane handles the weight fine..

For the smaller planes 20 ounce to 40 ounce A123 cells are great. if you have planes 5 pounds or more glow or lipo is the way to go, but I do not have money for $600.00 of batterys to fly.
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:16 PM
  #54  
DickCorby
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I flew that same plane with 2100 20C Lipos, and it weighed in at 27.5 ounces, and was so overpowered that it was awesome. Vertical outta sight. To each his own I guess.
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:49 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by DickCorby View Post
I flew that same plane with 2100 20C Lipos, and it weighed in at 27.5 ounces, and was so overpowered that it was awesome. Vertical outta sight. To each his own I guess.
Well we all feel power in a driffrent way, I guess it depends on what your used to flying. with the lipo it had power but wot for more then a few secs you could tell it was lossing power. with the A123 pack i can not ever tell a driffrence in power drop. the 6 ouces of weight makes it fly better in the wind, I have flown it in up to 15mph winds w/o any issues with the lipo it would toss it around quit a bit.

For these size planes I just like the A123 cells better, i do not have to baby them and dont need a container to charge in and dont have to worry about droping them ( I try not to drop any battery) just less to worry about, and I love the power they give out.
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:46 PM
  #56  
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not sure if this point has been made- but the weight of lipos has actually gone up considerably to meet the "demand" for higher C packs...maybe there's an intersection point somewhere here?

Tim
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:48 PM
  #57  
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The plane drew 25 Amps WOT. So the 2100 20C packs are holding their voltage level through the entire flight. With 1700's you were probably exceeding 17 AMPs, and dropping the voltage drastically. Especially if they were 10C rated. Voltage translates to RPM at the motor, so maintaining a constant voltage is the real secret to Li-Po's.

So you basically are getting better performance by using packs that provide a more constant voltage to the motor at the current load for the throttle setting.

i'm fortunate to have a source for Li-Po's at almost wholesale. All 20C and with balancing. Which also makes Li'-Po's work more efficiently. For example a 4S-1P 4000 MAH 20C pack for my Hyperion Yak costs me $56 USD. So for me Li-Po's are cheap
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:51 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by DickCorby View Post
I flew that same plane with 2100 20C Lipos, and it weighed in at 27.5 ounces, and was so overpowered that it was awesome. Vertical outta sight. To each his own I guess.
example a 3.6V 1050mah 12C cell was 23 grams .

today a 20C lipo 1080 cell weighs 34 grams.

and a 1200mah "30C" lipo weighs 38 grams.


we sure pay more for them..but is it value- i dont think so..
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:00 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by watt_the?! View Post
not sure if this point has been made- but the weight of lipos has actually gone up considerably to meet the "demand" for higher C packs...maybe there's an intersection point somewhere here?

Tim
I'm not so sure that is true for all packs. I just measured two of my packs.

10C 1500MAH 3S-1P 1 year old pack weighs 7.5 oz

20C 2100MAH 3S-1P 2 month old pack weighs 6 oz.

The ratings (10C and 20C) check out on the FMA battery Analysis. I wonder if it has too do with which factory in China manufactures the pack.

Also the newer balancing chargers have such good protection built in that you don't have to worry about charging in a safety container. I've never used tham anyway.

This is a discussion that will go on forever. We all tend to justify our choices.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:05 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by DickCorby View Post
The plane drew 25 Amps WOT. So the 2100 20C packs are holding their voltage level through the entire flight. With 1700's you were probably exceeding 17 AMPs, and dropping the voltage drastically. Especially if they were 10C rated. Voltage translates to RPM at the motor, so maintaining a constant voltage is the real secret to Li-Po's.

So you basically are getting better performance by using packs that provide a more constant voltage to the motor at the current load for the throttle setting.

i'm fortunate to have a source for Li-Po's at almost wholesale. All 20C and with balancing. Which also makes Li'-Po's work more efficiently. For example a 4S-1P 4000 MAH 20C pack for my Hyperion Yak costs me $56 USD. So for me Li-Po's are cheap
That is nice you can get them so cheap, but how man cycles can you get with these Wholesale batterys? I have no worry I will be able to get at least 500 cycles on my A123 packs. The top of the line lipos TP/Extremes, flight power can go quite a few cycles also but you sure got to be sure not to over amp them, or you might end up with a Puffed one. So there again thats why A123 is better. Plus there is no lipo out yet that could handle a 60A continuoius drain. I am not sure what C my 1700 was I belive it was 17C or something i do not have it anymore gave it back to my father since I do not fly it it was a good battery I got lot flying out of it, it was a vampower battery.

The A123 does hold and continues to hold.

I am not saying lipos stink, I flew lipos for 3 years stright, who knows how many flights I got with lipos over 1,000 easy. But just now for me A123's are cheaper and tougher. yes they weigh a little more but I am not worried with the weight.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:07 PM
  #61  
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yeah thats true..

when you compare bare cells it is evident that same manufacturer higher C rated cells weigh more.

i figure its a mix of flight time, wing loading, relative battery to plane mass and cost and the importance placed on each by the individual.

i still parallel up my old 12C packs to get 6-10 minutes and never go above 14C.

then mix it up with a prop/gearbox to give me the flight performance i want.

i truly do believe that the modelling public has been conned with "high C" lipos.

it is fact that the more "heavy duty" a lipo does also significantly reduces its ability to deliver dozens of charges at the same performance..

i use the anaology of "strain hardening"...bending a paper clip back and forward.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:08 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by DickCorby View Post
I'm not so sure that is true for all packs. I just measured two of my packs.

10C 1500MAH 3S-1P 1 year old pack weighs 7.5 oz

20C 2100MAH 3S-1P 2 month old pack weighs 6 oz.

The ratings (10C and 20C) check out on the FMA battery Analysis. I wonder if it has too do with which factory in China manufactures the pack.

Also the newer balancing chargers have such good protection built in that you don't have to worry about charging in a safety container. I've never used tham anyway.

This is a discussion that will go on forever. We all tend to justify our choices.
Some have always felt they had no reason to worry, thats why so many have losts houses,cars,planes,helis to lipo fires.

I never have had a issue but would rather be safe then sorry.

The charger I have used most is a triton . now I use a FMA cellpro4.

Your right, cause 100 people will feel 100 driffrent ways. some like this and some like that, I just know what works well for me. and i feel anyone new to the hobby should skip lipos and start with A123's there just so safe and easy
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:44 PM
  #63  
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Another thought on the "I love A123's" side of the fence. I flew Lipos for 3 years and switched to A123's 12 months ago. My take on the weight argument is that with A123's you can take all 2300mAh, right to the last drop and all the way you get full power. To safely get 2300mAh of useful power from Lipos, my experience is that you'd have to use say 3000mAh lipos. If you use 2300's theres a great danger of damage if you try to use it all. So a like for like weight comparison should be made between A123's and 3000mAh Lipos.

Now I'm looking for a similar product to A123's but smaller. So I'm keen to know about these B&D 1100's. Can anyone post more info on these please??
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:49 PM
  #64  
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Thread here:


http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26602

and another one:

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27096
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:51 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by aV8er View Post
Another thought on the "I love A123's" side of the fence. I flew Lipos for 3 years and switched to A123's 12 months ago. My take on the weight argument is that with A123's you can take all 2300mAh, right to the last drop and all the way you get full power. To safely get 2300mAh of useful power from Lipos, my experience is that you'd have to use say 3000mAh lipos. If you use 2300's theres a great danger of damage if you try to use it all. So a like for like weight comparison should be made between A123's and 3000mAh Lipos.

Now I'm looking for a similar product to A123's but smaller. So I'm keen to know about these B&D 1100's. Can anyone post more info on these please??

Thats a good point also, and what would you like to know about them ?
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26602

I have 25 flights on a 4 cell pack and I love them, 8 mins of flying great 3D and I sometimes can get 9 out of it. 20 mins to charge back up and back into the air.
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Old 12-24-2007, 01:08 AM
  #66  
watt_the?!
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what's the "life" of these alternative cells?- i.e. number of cycles and storage time like?
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Old 12-24-2007, 02:22 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by watt_the?! View Post
what's the "life" of these alternative cells?- i.e. number of cycles and storage time like?
You talking about A123 2300 and 1100 cells, around 1,000 cycles. and they seem to be able to be stored fullycharged and not harm them, they barly loose anything. But i myself have not done any long time testing but others may have.
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:25 AM
  #68  
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I'm up to about 350 flights on my first A123's and recon they are about 1% down on performance against a new pack. And thats after accidentally discharging them to 0V a couple of times, charging once or twice at 20A (to see if I could) and a bad crash where one can buckled a little. After the crash I had to solder directly to two of the cells too.

I have never had any lipos that would take that abuse. Or last that long. Or be considered so safe while charging. Or hold their power throughout a flight. My only problem with them is that when they are empty they are empty. Its like a fuel tank running out. You go deadstick!
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Old 12-24-2007, 03:17 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by aV8er View Post
I'm up to about 350 flights on my first A123's and recon they are about 1% down on performance against a new pack. And thats after accidentally discharging them to 0V a couple of times, charging once or twice at 20A (to see if I could) and a bad crash where one can buckled a little. After the crash I had to solder directly to two of the cells too.

I have never had any lipos that would take that abuse. Or last that long. Or be considered so safe while charging. Or hold their power throughout a flight. My only problem with them is that when they are empty they are empty. Its like a fuel tank running out. You go deadstick!
yeah I had that happen with my Katana I got lucky landed within 5 feet of two huge things that would have tore my plane up really bad.

My father has 200 flights or right around it on a 3 cell that he has 150 or more zip chargers on, its lost a little but not enought to matter.
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Old 08-29-2008, 11:00 PM
  #70  
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Apogee Batteries
I am a born skeptic and probably overly skeptical but wish to add my comments.
I purchased my first Apogee battery on the recommendation of a friend who uses them. It is the Magnum 3cell 2200 Mah and is by far the best battery I have ever owned. In regard to cell balancing, and I do not claim to be an expert. I can go along with Apogee's reasoning from my experience with Nicads. Larry Sribick of SR batteries paid very close attention to using identically matched cells in his batteries and I always got more cycles and longer time before charge than from his competitors. It stands to reason that if the cells are not identical they will be "pushing and pulling" within themselves and even if balanced charge they will revert back to unbalance while discharging.
Bill Birmingham of Apogee has been very helpful to me and has the expertise which I lack. I have great confidence in his recommendations.
Dick Trebel
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