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Electric Motor Sizes

Old 08-28-2013, 04:51 AM
  #1  
dereckbc
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Default Electric Motor Sizes

can someone either point me, or give me the Readers Digest version to electric motor sizes?

I know about gasser when they say a 60 Size meaning 60 cc displacement. But as I was reading my AMA magazine looking at vendor adds they use terms like Electric Motor size group 45-60 or something like that. Is that an equivalent to a gaqsser cc size?
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Old 08-28-2013, 05:08 AM
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hayofstacks
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basically, yes.

go to heads up rc. read motors. much easier now that they have them listed according to size.

take the projected all up weight of the model, use this as a base line. pick a motor that gives you enough prop clearance and has at minimum a 1:1 power to weight ratio. heads up posts actual thrust from motor testing. 5lb model, 5 ounces of thrust. another good number to shoot.for is 100 watts or more per pound.

my ultra stick flies nice and even has some verticle on 350 watts. with battery, it weighs about 4 lbs (4000 mah 3 cell). same setup on 4 cells, 830ish watts(same prop) 3000 mah battery, unlimited verticle till you cant see it.

some would argue 350 watts isn't enough to fly the plane and would be unhappy with it. others would say 830 watts is way too much. but both will fly the plane.

using this as a guide, it WILL fly the plane. I like to over motor and then under prop/throttle back.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
.....I know about gasser when they say a 60 Size meaning 60 cc displacement. But as I was reading my AMA magazine looking at vendor adds they use terms like Electric Motor size group 45-60 or something like that. Is that an equivalent to a gaqsser cc size?
To this point - I have to correct it a bit. The "60" glow motor is actually not in CC's rather in Cubic Inches. So a 60 motor is actually .60 CI. The 46 is actually a .46 and so on. So in the case of a .60 that is just shy of 10cc's. The gas motors are almost always given capacity in CC's however, glow in CI. Just to muddy the waters a bit. I just wish the US would join the world here - but I digress.

Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
can someone either point me, or give me the Readers Digest version to electric motor sizes?
Well this is a tall task as the vendors differ a bit here in how they measure stuff. Some do the stators, some do the can others do a glow comparison. If you have a glow history that is helpful but many here have never done that.

So I scrap it all. I have what I think is an easy way that I go about determining how much motor I need. I use the weight of the motor. It is a really good indicator of how much "power" you can run through the motor.

I use 3w/g of motor weight. So a 10g motor is good for about 30 watts of power. This is a safe measurement for most of the hobby type motors we use. If your motor is 100g it is good for about 300w of power. Make sense?

There are exceptions - and as the motors get larger they are better able to dissipate heat so you can start to use 4w/g and on very high efficiency (these motors are high quality and high cost) you can go to 5w/g. I usually switch to about 4w/g at motors that are around 250g or more.

Here is a great power chart to let you know about how much power your plane will need:

http://www.theampeer.org/e-basics/e-...#POWER%20CHART

The chart is near the bottom of the page. That site has great advice too! I should note that EDF is not on this chart. Use 150w/lb as a starting point. EDF's are not terribly efficient and need a good deal of power just to fly.

So forget about all the 2810/12 and .10 and other stuff - jump right to the motor weight and figure out power using the weight of the motor.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:38 PM
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One more item.... Just for the glow guys. If you are looking for a glow engine to watts in power this is a pretty good chart to use:

.049 * 2000 = ~100 watts
.25 * 2000 = ~500 watts
.40 * 2000 = ~800 watts
.65 * 2000 = ~1200 watts

It is pretty good at estimating how much you need.

Also - one other point. The manufactures generally do a pretty good job of recommending power and the size of electric motor you will need these days. They have recognized that the world is switching from smelly, expensive, messy glow to electric and we are lucky to get them thinking more about us. We used to have to do a fair bit of work to convert to "e" power. Now not so much.

Mike
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Old 08-28-2013, 04:58 PM
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I have a 10.4 oz Hurc Power-up 46- 620KV, 1000 watt that I was thinking about mounting in my GP Escapade that now has a G-32 installed w/ a 100amp esc(overkill). The G-32 is fine for now. Here are the specs for the Power up 46: http://www.headsuphobby.com/Power-Up...otor-F-586.htm

> 1HP. Yikes


I'd have to consider the increased nose weight and subsequent re-balancing with this Hoss , but it will handle 5S & 6S where the G-32 is only rated for 4S. Max prop size is really 12" dia. due to ground clearance. So, I might be asking too much in using this beast.

-Hawk
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:35 PM
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dereckbc
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Originally Posted by dahawk View Post
I have a 10.4 oz Hurc Power-up 46- 620KV, 1000 watt that I was thinking about mounting in my GP Escapade that now has a G-32 installed w/ a 100amp esc(overkill). The G-32 is fine for now. Here are the specs for the Power up 46: http://www.headsuphobby.com/Power-Up...otor-F-586.htm

> 1HP. Yikes
I am a Electrical Engineer with a fair amount of motor experience and what strikes me as rather odd is the efficiency of RC Electric Motors being very low.

1 Hp = roughly 746 watts @ 100% efficiency.

Induction AC motors run in the high 90's and a typical 1 HP motor at Full Load consumes roughly 780 to 790 watts.

At 1000 watts per HP for an RX Electric DC motor is only 74% efficient.

Perhaps it is time for the RC world to catch up and make the switch from using DC motors with PWM speed controllers to using AC Induction using VFD controllers like EV's and Golf carts have switched too. The immediate benefit is longer run times. Additional benefits would be smaller lighter motors for a given power level, much longer motor life, and less expensive motors to offset higher VFD controller cost. I do not see any down side to switch.

Thoughts or Comments?
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:50 PM
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Rockin Robbins
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Dereck, with few exceptions we are not using DC motors but AC induction motors, with our ESC putting converting our DC battery supply to alternating current going to the motors.

I can think of a few reasons for our efficiencies not being as high.

First, we may be counting efficiency as power in from the battery/power out from the propeller, where ESC and propeller efficiency becomes part of our efficiency number.

Secondly, AC induction motors in industrial settings are allowed to turn their most efficient RPM and output is geared up and down as needed. To save weight on our planes we run our props at 1:1, attached to the output shaft and throttle the motor. Different throttle settings yield different efficiency of the motor.

I'm sure there are things this engineering challenged brain is not thinking of...
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:18 PM
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dereckbc
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Dereck, with few exceptions we are not using DC motors but AC induction motors, with our ESC putting converting our DC battery supply to alternating current going to the motors.
RR I respectively disagree. All RC motors I have seen are Brushless DC motors (BLDC). When you see a spec of say 1000Kv means 1000 RPM's per 1 volt of DC applied. DC motors speed is controlled by the voltage applied to them.

With AC motors there is no correlation of voltage and RPM. AC motors RPM's are controlled by the frequency of the AC power source. VFD = Variable Frequency Drive which controls both frequency and voltage of the waveform. Frequency determines RPM, voltage determines available torque.

A DC motor is controlled with a PWM controller (Pulse Width Modulation) which only controls the voltage and the ESC as you call them are PWM speed controllers.
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post

Thoughts or Comments?
My thoughts are that the difference in efficiency is largely to do with the size and mass of the motors. A typical 1HP AC industrial induction motor may well have an efficiency in the 90% plus zone but it's weight be something around 7KG. A typical 1HP RC brushless DC motor might be 10-15% less efficient but only weighs around 200-300g.

The fact that the DC motor is relatively massive means that it has a much larger iron core and far more copper. Iron and copper efficiency losses are therefore much smaller. The AC motor is more efficient not due to it's technology but due to shear size and weight.

If you built a 7KG, 1HP, brushless DC motor I'd expect it would have efficiency similar to it's AC rival. But good luck getting either of them off the ground under their own power

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Old 08-28-2013, 08:35 PM
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And probably need a frequency inverter, VFD,soft start and Plc
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
I am a Electrical Engineer with a fair amount of motor experience and what strikes me as rather odd is the efficiency of RC Electric Motors being very low.

1 Hp = roughly 746 watts @ 100% efficiency.

Induction AC motors run in the high 90's and a typical 1 HP motor at Full Load consumes roughly 780 to 790 watts.

At 1000 watts per HP for an RX Electric DC motor is only 74% efficient.

Perhaps it is time for the RC world to catch up and make the switch from using DC motors with PWM speed controllers to using AC Induction using VFD controllers like EV's and Golf carts have switched too. The immediate benefit is longer run times. Additional benefits would be smaller lighter motors for a given power level, much longer motor life, and less expensive motors to offset higher VFD controller cost. I do not see any down side to switch.

Thoughts or Comments?
Yup
These brushless motors we are using in our models are in fact, three phase AC motors, with the three phase wires to the motors windings. Or more exactly, a three phase synchronous permanent magnet motor.

The RPM of these motors is varied by varying the frequency of the three phase AC signal generated by the brushless Electronic Speed Control.

For anyone that does not believe these are three phase motors, I've got oscilloscope photos of the voltage on the motors three phase leads. And, that voltage is three phase AC. I've gone so far as to directly connect a Hacker A60 motor's three wires to a Hacker A40's three wires. Spinning the A60 motor with a battery operated drill immediately turns over the A40 motor. That is a three phase "alternator-motor" setup. And, loading down the A40 motor by grabbing its rotating bell housing immediately loads down the battery operated drill.

As for efficiency, the more the motor costs, usually the higher the motor efficiency. Once you get to a motor size over perhaps one KW, these quality motors generally run about 90% efficiency. Per www.motocalc.com, my various Hacker motors are running 89-92% efficiency.

Some of the cheap import motors that are claiming unrealistic power ratings like 150 or 200 watts per ounce of motor weight will wind up with motor efficiency of 50% or less. And, if you actually run those motors at their "rated" power levels, you will quickly release the motor smoke out of their windings.
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
can someone either point me, or give me the Readers Digest version to electric motor sizes?

I know about gasser when they say a 60 Size meaning 60 cc displacement. But as I was reading my AMA magazine looking at vendor adds they use terms like Electric Motor size group 45-60 or something like that. Is that an equivalent to a gaqsser cc size?
Something else to be aware of here. These electric motors generally turn a much larger prop than their equivalent sized glow engine. My various Hacker A50 motors turn a 15X10 APC-E prop at about 7700 RPM. One Hacker A50-16S motor is turning a 16X12 prop. That power system far outperforms another club members 72 size four stroke glow engine in the same model airplane. Of course, my model flies for 6.5 minutes with 30% reserve battery power, as compared to the glow power time of perhaps 10 minutes.

Just seems to me that a big diameter slow turning prop will power a model better than a small prop turning at 12,000 RPM in the average model airplane.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kyleservicetech View Post
Just seems to me that a big diameter slow turning prop will power a model better than a small prop turning at 12,000 RPM in the average model airplane.
Yep, that's a scientific fact.
Prop efficiency in terms of the amount of thrust you get vs. input power is proportional to prop diameter squared. So for example, if your electric motor was spinning a 15" prop and the glow engine was spinning a 12" prop then the electric powered model would have 56% more thrust, even if the input power was totally identical.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
can someone either point me, or give me the Readers Digest version to electric motor sizes?

I know about gasser when they say a 60 Size meaning 60 cc displacement. But as I was reading my AMA magazine looking at vendor adds they use terms like Electric Motor size group 45-60 or something like that. Is that an equivalent to a gaqsser cc size?
Mmmmmm in wet fuel the 60 is not necessarily 60cc..... a 60 glow is 10cc.

Anyway I too am confused by various size quotes. When I raced electric cars - we used 380 brushed motors. Now we tend to talk about eg 2826 xx xx kv..... but that I can understand fine. it's when people start talking 400 Suze etc that I don't have a clue what that is in relation to physical size as given by the 2826 example.

Nigel
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
RR I respectively disagree. All RC motors I have seen are Brushless DC motors (BLDC). When you see a spec of say 1000Kv means 1000 RPM's per 1 volt of DC applied. DC motors speed is controlled by the voltage applied to them.

With AC motors there is no correlation of voltage and RPM. AC motors RPM's are controlled by the frequency of the AC power source. VFD = Variable Frequency Drive which controls both frequency and voltage of the waveform. Frequency determines RPM, voltage determines available torque.

A DC motor is controlled with a PWM controller (Pulse Width Modulation) which only controls the voltage and the ESC as you call them are PWM speed controllers.
Sorry but wrong. BL motors are AC motors.

Nigel
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:45 AM
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The brushed can motors were rated in relation to typical can dimensions. The brushless "400", "480" etc legacy-rated motors are rated attempting to equate power of the old brushed. But they don't equate well...
Its debatable which is more meaningless: the glow power equivalent ratings or the "speed XXX" ratings. Neither really does well.

The 4 digit dash or slash followed by 1 or 2 digit are listing physical size and winding count per stator pole.
But this is not standardized with that some go by the stator dimensions and some that go by overall motor dimensions.
Good for comparison within one maker's line of motors but debateable if it means much compared to someone else's line of motors.

Watts input, voltage and kV are always good for comparison. (assuming the maker doesn't lie... unfortunately some do lie)
You can directly measure the watts input easily. If the maker told the truth then you are not overloading the motor when applying the rated voltage and the wattmeter reads less than the max input rating for the motor. (you can do the math and use current and battery nominal voltage if you don't have a wattmeter)
the voltage is a max input rating
and kV * volts = how fast it "WANTS" to turn with no load.
Assume under load about 80% of kV and you should be in ballpark for what rpm the prop should turn if the motor is not overloaded.

**************

Common household AC motors are usually constant voltage, constant frequency AC using "squirrel cage" rotors which will attempt to turn at a speed in direct proportion to the AC frequency.

Our "brushless DC" motors are built in a manner that could work with 3-phase AC except they probably would not self-start. They have the stator windings typical of 3 phase AC motors, but use permanent magnets in the rotors.

You CAN make a 3 phase AC motor with permanent magnets and operate it off of common fixed frequency 3-phase line current. (I've seen this type motor) They are typically used in motor-generator sets that require accurate frequency control when being powered by the brushed DC end from a battery. You start the machine by powering the DC end, match phase to the AC line side then you can switch over to powering it from the AC side and use it to charge the DC battery.

The "brushless DC" ESCs develop a simulated variable frequency 3-phase AC output using feedback from the motor's unpowered phase for timing input.
The actual output of the ESCs is pulses of voltage from the battery timed to attempt to lead the motor's rotation slightly.
This is closely related to the operation of a stepper motor, which is extremely accurate in being able to repeat positioning, as used in printers and plotters (and many other applications)

So our "brushless DC" motors really are more related to AC motors than to brushed DC motors.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Sorry but wrong. BL motors are AC motors.

Nigel
Derek is spot on with all that he said (he seems to know his stuff on this far better thant you or I). Our motors are known as Brushless DC motors. Where the confusion comes from is that the ESC does convert DC to a form of AC. The actual motor windings do see a type of AC, though it's not the sine wave type AC that most people recognise as AC. However you can say the same for every type of electric motor, even old fashioned brushed DC motors have AC in the windings. If you looked at it that way all electric motor are AC.

It makes more sense if you consider the ESC and motor as a single functional unit (which is true because the motor isn’t complete and cannot function without the ESC), then it clearly is a DC motor unit.

Whatever way you personally might choose to look at it our motors are indeed known (by ‘real’ electrical engineers) as Brushless DC motors.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:47 PM
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I'm in the Warehouse Automation business and we commonly use 24V Brushless DC motors to drive conveyors versus the typical squirell cage 230/480V 3phase 6 hz AC motors. You still have a 3 phase power drop but use a DC power supply to drop the voltage from 480V to 24V. Don't need VFD's. I'm not a flux capacitor guy like Derek, Jet or Denny but here's a simpler primer: www.insightautomation.cc/resources/.../Motorized%20Roller%20Primer.pdf

-Hawk
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:03 PM
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dereckbc
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Derek is spot on with all that he said (he seems to know his stuff on this far better thant you or I).


Thanks I am an EE and work with both AC and DC motors a fair bit, but not exclusively.

If you guys look at the ESC paperwork, at least the two I have, state they are PWM controllers and even specify the frequency they operate at. When they initialize you hear that high pitched whine assuming the frequency is low enough for the human ear to hear. Mine operate at 8 Khz

I can understand how some might thing they are AC as the waveform orf at first glance looks like an AC waveform, but it is really a square wave form. PWM or Pulse Wave Modulation is basically a on/off switch that operates real fast. To control voltage the Pulse duty cycle is Modulated. The duty cycle is just the relationship of the amount of on/off time expressed as a percentage of 0 to 100%. At 0% the switch is always off (open) and at 100% fully on (closed). If you were to look at it on a scope would look like pulses of varying width as seen below.






Perhaps at the higher end motors might be AC using BFD, I am new so not certain. What I can say if the motor has a RPM per volt rating is a DC motor spec. For example 1000 Kv which I am certain you know means 1000 RPM's per Volt.
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Old 08-29-2013, 03:05 PM
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At the other end here is a VFD output and you can clearly see the waveform is different and AC.

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Old 08-29-2013, 03:23 PM
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I believe dc is known as direct current, and ac is alternating current. if the current changes, how do you define it as dc if its using pulse modulation?
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
I believe dc is known as direct current, and ac is alternating current. if the current changes, how do you define it as dc if its using pulse modulation?
DC is defined as current flowing in only one direction. AC is defined as current moving in both direction and the voltage changes polarity at zero cross-over. Note the Waveforms on PWM th epulses are only positive with current flowing in one direction. Then look at the VFD wavefor and you can clearly see the sinusoidal waveform changing polarity.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Yep, that's a scientific fact.
Prop efficiency in terms of the amount of thrust you get vs. input power is proportional to prop diameter squared.
Never saw that in print before, that's good to know.

Thanks!
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Sorry but wrong. BL motors are AC motors.

Nigel
Yup
Before retiring, our Service Center had a variable three phase voltage supply that could be varied between zero and about 50 VAC.

I connected one of my brushless motors to that three phase supply, and guess what? That motor instantly started up, and ran. But at 60 Hertz, it did not rotate very fast though, around 250 RPM! Since the input frequency was fixed at 60 Hertz, the motor also ran at a fixed RPM.

For what it's worth, you also have three phase power in your automobile, namely the automotive alternator. Inside the alternator case is a three phase winding, with the winding connected to a three phase rectifier bridge that is used to provide 12 Volt DC power to your auto. Some time ago, I rewound an alternator to provide 60 Volts DC to a special project.

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Old 08-29-2013, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
DC is defined as current flowing in only one direction. AC is defined as current moving in both direction and the voltage changes polarity at zero cross-over. Note the Waveforms on PWM th epulses are only positive with current flowing in one direction. Then look at the VFD wavefor and you can clearly see the sinusoidal waveform changing polarity.
Here is a live photo of a Castle Creations Electronic Speed Control in operation on a Hacker brushless motor. With a four channel Scope, the other two phases will also show up, offset by 120 degrees rotation.
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