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Warning - what is under that LiPo wrapper?

Old 01-17-2006, 08:33 PM
  #1  
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Exclamation Warning - what is under that LiPo wrapper?

Counterfeit goods?

OK,

I was after this new 1500 (Kokam 605060) pack here (as tested by Gerd Giese at Elektromodellflug):


Several of us had been wondering who's cells are going into different vendors products, and amongst this I purchased what appeared to be a 'new generation' Kokam pack from here and here:



The vendors description was:
Kokam Polymer 605060 3 Cell 3.7v 1450mAh RC Hobby Craft
Kokam Polymer for RC Hobby Craft


Battery Part Number - 605060



No. ITEMS SPECIFICATION
1 Nominal Capacity Min. 1450mAh
2 Nominal Voltage 3.7V
3 Charge Condition
Max. current 1.0CmA (1450mAh)
Voltage 4.200.02V
4 Discharge Condition
Max. current 25.0CmA(36250mA)
Cut-off Voltage 3.0V
5 AC Impedance Max. 15m?
6 Operating Temperature
Charge 0? ~ 45?
Discharge -10? ~ 60?
7 Weight Max. 40.0g
8 Energy density
Volumetric 298 Wh/l
Gravimetric 135 Wh/kg
(This is the Kokam data)

Needless to say the pack arrived, and I was suspicious that there was no PCB at the end of the pack, so I opened it up:


...... Now this is definitely not a Kokam cell - it is Saehan.

I have heard that unscrupulous individuals are now putting all-sorts under shrink wrap and passing off as several of the well known manufacturers packs. This may not be a problem - until a pack 'vents with flame' and causes damage.

Keep your eyes open

Rod

Last edited by RC-Tester; 01-18-2006 at 05:56 AM. Reason: Clarification: source of LiPo
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Old 01-17-2006, 10:53 PM
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Default Discharge data

Just so we know what this 3S Saehan 605060 pack performs like (remember it was sold as 25C continuous discharge rating) I have graphed up to 9C discharge so far.

...... looks to me that the voltage is is being depressed significantly.

Rod
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:36 AM
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Here I go with my does not stay above 3.5 volts per cell long enough speech. Dropping below 3.5 under a 6C(?) load at 500 mAh or approximately 1/3 , 34% of rated capacity.

Impersonation is a form of flattery , is it not?

Thanks for the heads up.

Charles

Last edited by everydayflyer; 01-18-2006 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
Here I go with my does not stay above 3.5 volts per cell long enough speech. Dropping below 3.5 under a 6C(?) load at 500 mAh or approximately 1/3 , 34% of rated capacity.
Think that is something - look where it is heading at 15C! (attached)

Rod
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:49 AM
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Rod,

Your counterfeit find is both interesting and disturbing.

Thanks for posting the information.

Regards.
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:36 AM
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Interesting configuration - anyone recognise it?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kokam-Polymer-...QQcmdZViewItem
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Interesting configuration - anyone recognise it?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kokam-Polymer-...QQcmdZViewItem
Since it is from INTECH, the company that has the counterfeit KOK packs from China. then one would have to assume that this comes from the same source. INTECH is not an authorized distributor or dealer for FMA, Inc.

Fred Marks, Pres.
FMA, Inc.
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Old 01-20-2006, 06:36 AM
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if they arent what they say, ebay should be informed....are intec kokam suppliers?
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Old 01-21-2006, 03:58 AM
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Well the first store is already closed. Maybe Greg got after them.
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Old 01-21-2006, 04:11 AM
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Cloning has been around forever. Very dangerous in many ways, such as the fake pet meds, for serioius transmitted diseases. What I don't understand is why people try to save money, generally pennies, on these no-name fly-by-night companies.
Using the most basic common sense, what the .. would Kokam batteries of Fredrick MD be doing all the way over in China, at a lower cost?
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:19 AM
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Default Another Imposter

Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
Cloning has been around forever.
Looks like we have another one! This time it is a Polyquest 'knock off' complete with PQ label: here

I was suspicious that Polyquest would release a 'new Prolite V2' with cells made by 'Saehan' (not Enerland), and the text contained some inconsistencies:
Looking for BEST battery for T-REX? The extremely popular PROLITE V2 is here now. Extreme performance, long flight time and super light weight at bargain price, this battery is the best investment you’ve ever done on your T-REX. With over 200 life cycles, this one is 4 times longevity than the old PROLITE version which only has 50 life cycles. 2100mAh - 3S - 11.1V - 16C continous/ 22C burst, 36A max at only 144g.

This battery is manufactured by Saehan Corp., the world's famous South Korea battery manufacture that supplies most popular batteries for T-REX at this moment on the market. With the newest technology, this battery Prolite V2 offers great life time and great performance at bargain prices.

Special introductory price - Great value and performance.

The PROLITE V2 has been proven to be one of the most efficient packs in the market delivering higher current ( 16C ) to weight ratio than most other packs. And not only that the Poly Quest are so powerful and efficient but each battery ships with a pre connected charging / safety hook up ( white square in picture to the right ). This special connections makes charging the Power Quest much safer and helping the user reach optimum charging conditions.
..... I must say they have made a good attempt at copying the PQ label on the pack!

Rod
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:52 AM
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if im reading their chart right then it says that 17 and 18C perform better than 16 and 20C...

so the moral is to not run them at 16C....go for 17-20C, or 1-15C.

?!!!!

and if you want 500 cycles, discharge at 1C.
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Old 02-05-2006, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg Covey View Post
Rod,

Your counterfeit find is both interesting and disturbing.

Thanks for posting the information.

Regards.
Find anything out Greg? I would bet these companies have it all worked out to say, "We got them from the invisible man, and didn't know they were fakes."

The moral of the story is to buy direct, or from a known reputable, well established business. If the price is too good, then there's something wrong.
Look at the basic rule. Most companies that sell direct also allow hobby shops to buy from them, make a small profit, and offer at the same price as the direct manufacturer does. How then does some foreign or fly-by-night business get the same stuff for so much less than our hobby shops do, and offer at a substantially reduced rate.
Answer: They don't. They're selling fakes.
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Old 02-05-2006, 07:48 PM
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that's why I dont deal with ebay.
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill G View Post
The moral of the story is to buy direct, or from a known reputable, well established business. If the price is too good, then there's something wrong.
Except this one (below) is available through most LHS in the UK, and supplied by one of the UK's biggest suppliers at normal prices. Link here
Front and back of the 'Kokam 20C 740 mAh' pack is shown below, feel free to compare with Perkins description.

.... I think this is starting to become more widespread and sophisticated - just look at the 'Polyquest Prolite V2' label on the pack a couple of posts back. If they can make you think it *is* whoever they are trying to pass it off as they *will* start charging the same price.

Rod
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Old 02-05-2006, 08:29 PM
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that's a load of bull... never heard a 40C claim before.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:54 PM
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Either J Perkins is the leader of Earthly lipo tech with their 40 C cells- or they are a fraud and somebody's gonna lose their house and maybe their life trying to duplicate the performance of the genuine cells- or to reach the ficticious performance claimed.

Its starting to be obvious why some people have fires and disasters with standard practice, using these dud cells from increasingly sophisticated criminals.

Ebay? MY boss lost over $800 on a pro camera that was junk- and completely misrepresented. Ebay did not even respond. The FBI Fraud Center did nothing. A local detective said fraud is now so widespread that unless it's over $1,000 they won't even file a report if its an interstate or internet situation!

Don't expect Ebay to police these people or even respond- even if your house burns down charging this junk. I'll pay full price from a known good source.

Caveat Emptor- Latin for "The buyer better keep a fire extinquisher handy!"

TW
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Old 02-05-2006, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by meatball View Post
that's a load of bull... never heard a 40C claim before.
agreed...even 20C is very ambitious...30C a joke...havent sen any genuine 25C yet.

and cycle life is horrendous.

Tim
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Old 02-05-2006, 10:03 PM
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i checked the pack out on the JP site....are those wires even capable of handling the 28A that 40C entails?...i think not...whats more i think that even 20C might be too much for them.

what the heck is going on here!?
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Old 02-06-2006, 01:55 AM
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Tell them what they want to hear, get the money, close down.

Reopen with the same procedure.

Reopen with the same procedure

Reopen with the same procedure

All the way to the Bank.

Welcome to the Global bussiness world.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TeslaWinger View Post
Its starting to be obvious why some people have fires and disasters with standard practice, using these dud cells from increasingly sophisticated criminals.
TW
Good point! And they figure most of the time the evidence will all be burned up anyway.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by watt_the?! View Post
i checked the pack out on the JP site....are those wires even capable of handling the 28A that 40C entails?...i think not...whats more i think that even 20C might be too much for them.

what the heck is going on here!?
Did you mean to say "watt the" heck is going on hear?
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Old 02-06-2006, 02:39 PM
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Reminds me of the ultimate Robber Baron quote from W R Hearst- "Men have the right to dig their own graves and I have the right to sell them the shovels!"

There are some 'big agendas' out there and none of them are for our protection. Without a forum such as this to counter the disinfo we would all be marveling at '40 amp 18 gauge wires and 40 C packs' that might survive the initial charge- but not that first 40 C flight.

Cycle life? You get one short flight per pack then ya need another plane- after extinguishing this one...!

Thanx for the info- I'll stick with my big Red Ks and buy them only from where I have already. This hobby is experimental enough without firebombs in my workshop!

Remember when 'suspending your disbelief' was just for the movies?
TW
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Old 02-06-2006, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RC-Tester View Post
Just so we know what this 3S Saehan 605060 pack performs like (remember it was sold as 25C continuous discharge rating) I have graphed up to 9C discharge so far.

...... looks to me that the voltage is is being depressed significantly.

Rod
are these even lipoly?....these new charts dont even resemble the characteristic lipo profiles...could they be these new lipo safe cells in disguise?

ive seen a few of these constant V drop profiles of late...

Tim
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Old 02-07-2006, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by meatball View Post
that's a load of bull... never heard a 40C claim before.
How about 100C?

Available today and they are fireproof.

Cells are going into DeWalt power tools. http://www.a123systems.com/html/technology.html
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