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AMA cost to size relationship?

Old 10-14-2005, 08:30 PM
  #51  
DickCorby
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The AMA rules are available at most club fields, and in your packet when you apply for membership. They aren't rules as such, but guidelines for flying these missles safely.

On top of that individual clubs make up a set of rules as well, aimed in the same direction. For example our flying field lies over a peat bog. If it were to ever catch fire, it would burn virtually forever. So we can't smoke in the flying area to keep this from happening. It's mainly common sense stuff anyway. And as a member of a club, you have the right to question, and vote against rules that you don't agree with.

Something that hasn't been mentioned about flying at sanctioned fields, is frequency interferance. These small planes and helicopters being flown within 5 miles or less of a field can shoot down the models at the sanctioned field, and/or vice versa.

I lost my $2000 72" Yak 3 minutes into it's maiden flight 2 weeks ago, and the only thing anybody that was there could figure was that I got hit. We have a lot of open areas around, and it is not out of the ordinary that someone was flying close and shot me down.

Something else the parkflyers could care less about.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:05 PM
  #52  
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Well, I dont have to worry about frequency issues. I am miles from any sactioned field, which is why I fly where I do. Plus I can just go fly whenever I feel like it, I know at least one of the club fields has a locked access gate to it. Here I just drive 2 mins and fly.

I will have to look at the insurance more closely. It is nice to have, but if they arent covering your butt because they dont feel like it (no contract so they can make it up as they go), its rather pointless. I belonged to the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) for years. I knew exactly what was and wasnt covered by their insurance. I also knew how hard they fought locally for rights for us to race. We ended up having to make concessions with noise restrictions, time restrictions, etc. but we could still race. Thats why I am willing to join the AMA even if I never fly at a club field or event. If they are willing to fight so I can keep my new found hobby alive, I am happy to contribute. I just want to know what I am paying for and how the money is used.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:50 PM
  #53  
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What the AMA does and does not cover is written on their site.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/memanual05.pdf

The insurance is explained on the 3rd page I believe. Right after the table of contents. Hope that helps.
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Old 10-14-2005, 09:52 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by kloudking View Post
Dear Marc:: I don't know where this post should be, but here's a topic I have heard talked about but not seen anything in writing.. Maybe it was a figment of some modelers imagination.. Is the AMA ever going to set up a sliding membership cost??? Most of us that are flying e-models, are not flying at club fields because of the size of the models we fly, and the cost of AMA to be able to join a club.. I was a member for years and when I stopped going to club fields I opted out of the AMA because of cost.. (and at that time the quality of their mag, for what I was loooking for). My opinion!!!! Why should guys that are flying 7-15 oz. models electrically subsidise the contest guys that are flying 20 40 LB. monsters with Gas engines??? Or Jets doing 150+ mph.. There should be a sliding scale according to the weight of the models flown..I realise this would be tough to police, but most of the people in the hobby that I have ever dealt with are very honest.. Even if there were three or four levels, Electric, Nitro, Gas, Jets, Heli, both electric and Nitro..I think this would get more people who are not members now to reconsider belonging to the AMA.. This might get more people thinking about pushing the AMA into a more fair pricing curve... Thanks, Kloudking
I just have to challenge this AMA cost assertion that is just so much hot air. At $60/year including an exclellent magazine and $1 million insurance the AMA is a true bargain. Most modelers blow off $60 to $300 at the LHS in a heartbeat but they say the AMA is too costly. Hogwash!
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:02 PM
  #55  
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From what I know, the AMA insurance picks up where your homeowner's quits. At least that is what was told to me.
Lets say you got your 10 oz. foamy, flying in your back yard or the church across the street. All of a sudden, you have no control and the plane just keeps on truckin! About a mile away, crotchety old grand-pa Creedy is walking down his front steps in his walker. Your foamy runs out of juice and hits the old phart square on the noggin. He loses balance and falls down the steps breaking both hips. And, he winds up dead at the emergency room. His family, whom you don't like anyways, finds out its your plane and sues the pants off of you. No insurance....after paying all the legal fees, selling your house and car etc., you can't even afford the steam off a hotdog! Your bull-headedness cost you everything you own.
Now, thats a far fetched scenario but it could happen.
A couple of years ago, one of the guys in the club lost control of a glider.
Dang it was up there!!!! After watching it go off into the sunset without any hope of it coming down, he scratched it off....one plane gone.
5 Days later, he got a call from the county sheriff's office. They found his plane (he had his name, address, phone and ama # inside the fuze). Funny thing is, the office is located 15 miles from the flying field. The glider ran out of power and glided until it landed in a tree at the sheriff's parking lot about 40 feet up. No one noticed it for 5 days in a tree.

Dave...
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:03 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by frvrngn View Post
Who decides the rules? Is it a black and white legal contract on what will and will not be covered? I am new to this hobby (3 mths) and my wife was going to get me a membership as a Christmas gift. The only reason I want it is for the insurance and to help the club along. I dont plan on flying at a club field, they are too far away. I also dont ever plan on flying if there are people around. The two fields I fly in are abandoned areas. One is at a park, the other a church. They are basically just waste area in between their property and the woods. I have permission at both to fly, the grounds keeper at the church used to fly control line. He couldnt believe how quiet and advanced newer planes were (and this was just a Slo-V). I dont care how good a pilot I become, a electronic or mechanical glitch is something nobody can predict. Its just not worth risking injury to someone by flying around people in a park. At least at a club field, the people there are more aware of the risks.
www.modelaircraft.org

Membership manual. Page three or just after the table of contents. The AMA Bylaws are also available on the site so you can see how the organization is run, who does what and how you can become a deciding member in the "Rules". Happy to have you on board.

Oh yeah, welcome to the hobby and do fly with others sometimes. You will absolutley get a thrill out of associating with the "rest of us flyer " I hope:o
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:05 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by frvrngn View Post
Well, I dont have to worry about frequency issues. I am miles from any sactioned field, which is why I fly where I do. Plus I can just go fly whenever I feel like it, I know at least one of the club fields has a locked access gate to it. Here I just drive 2 mins and fly.

I will have to look at the insurance more closely. It is nice to have, but if they arent covering your butt because they dont feel like it (no contract so they can make it up as they go), its rather pointless. I belonged to the SCCA (Sports Car Club of America) for years. I knew exactly what was and wasnt covered by their insurance. I also knew how hard they fought locally for rights for us to race. We ended up having to make concessions with noise restrictions, time restrictions, etc. but we could still race. Thats why I am willing to join the AMA even if I never fly at a club field or event. If they are willing to fight so I can keep my new found hobby alive, I am happy to contribute. I just want to know what I am paying for and how the money is used.
How far are you from Woodruff? Check this out www.joenall.com
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:07 PM
  #58  
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Sorry about the double post. Didn't turn the page:o
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Old 10-14-2005, 10:57 PM
  #59  
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That is also one of the AMA suggestions/rules. Each model is supposed to have your name and address in it, just in case it does get away from you. And it would be nice to get your plane back should it do the fly away thing.

I lost one when stationed in Adak Alaska back in the late 60's. Was flying off the beach, and couldnt get it back due to strong winds. Last seen it was heading north up the Bering sea, and still climbing in the wind after the .049 motor quit. If any russians should read this, it was an early ACE hotshot, Red with black and white trim.
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Old 10-15-2005, 02:54 AM
  #60  
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Guys (and Girls), i am a painting contractor and my contractors liability policies and workmans comp coverage cost me about $300 A MONTH. insurance is one of those thing that you purchase that you hope you will never have to use. the liability coverge provided by the AMA is the best deal on insurance i have seen. i realize that not everyone has gobs of money to throw around, and personaly, i would rather take that $58 and buy a three foot high stack of fanfold.
However i think the AMA is an excellent organization and it is great resource for anyone in the hobby. besides, my local hobby shop gives us a club discount that more than makes up for the cost of the membership over the year. (inquire at yours).
C'mon, it works out to about $0.16 A DAY!
If you dont read your magazine, donate them to your local public library, or give them to the neighborhood kids to read and maybe all of those potential new members joining will lower the costs of your membership...

Until then, The AMA will get my yearly check with a big 'thank you 'written on the bottom.

keep the nose up,

Paul Shiflet
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Old 10-15-2005, 04:25 AM
  #61  
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Actually, some electrics are so small, that they simply cannot harm anyone. I have a 17g airplane. It can only be flown in still air. It's harmless, virtually to all forms of life on this earth.

And I have AMA, because I fly larger planes at two clubs I belong to. The cost of the AMA membership means nothing to me. I can afford it. I figure I get value from it, when they fight for radio frequencies. Of course, the radio manufacturers do a good job of that too - and are they ever motivated!

But - some of this digressed into the silly statements that no planes can be flown in parks because all planes are too dangerous - well, that's simply not true. Irregardless of some folks planting their feet in the sand and yelling "I'll sue, no matter what!".

And I, for one, won't be cow'd by that kind of banter. I like being able to fly my light planes anywhere I like. It's a real pleasure to step out the door, and fly, or drive 2 blocks, and fly.

There are real dangers outdoors in front of my house - cars and trucks. Motor bikes. Bicyclists. Kids on ATVs and mini-bikes. Baseballs whizzing about. My 17g plane's the least of anyone's worries.

And at the school yard, I share it with golfers, kids on mini-bikes and ATVs, and sometimes a distant baseball game. And again, my planes pose no danger, especially when measured against those other activities.

And people know it. They come up to me - "how much does it cost", "do a loop", "where can I get that", etc. Never, do they scream at me that if I come even close to them, they'll sue me for every penny I've got.

They're nice people.
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Old 10-15-2005, 05:01 AM
  #62  
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The bottom line with your statement is the first line. You are an AMA member. So no matter what you fly, you have the assurance that you are covered.

This is probably one of the silliest threads I'v seen. One bitter or unknowlegable person started it and so far it has accomllished nothing.

Those who are AMA spout their opinions. Those that are against the AMA spout their opinions.

Let a sleeping dog lie. If you think the AMA is not for you, I don't see them calling in the JOIN Squad and making you join us. So go your merry way, and I hope all goes well for you. As for me, I too shall go the way I have gone since 1968 (AMA 33253). Pretty low number considering that now they are in the 200 thousands. Can that many people all be wrong??
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:36 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by kloudking View Post
Dear Marc:: I don't know where this post should be, but here's a topic I have heard talked about but not seen anything in writing.. Maybe it was a figment of some ers imagination.. Is the AMA ever going to set up a sliding membership cost??? Most of us that are flying e-models, are not flying at club fields because of the size of the s we fly, and the cost of AMA to be able to join a club.. I was a member for years and when I stopped going to club fields I opted out of the AMA because of cost.. (and at that time the quality of their mag, for what I was loooking for). My opinion!!!! Why should guys that are flying 7-15 oz. s electrically subsidise the contest guys that are flying 20 40 LB. monsters with Gas engines??? Or Jets doing 150+ mph.. There should be a sliding scale according to the weight of the s flown..I realise this would be tough to police, but most of the people in the hobby that I have ever dealt with are very honest.. Even if there were three or four levels, Electric, Nitro, Gas, Jets, Heli, both electric and Nitro..I think this would get more people who are not members now to reconsider belonging to the AMA.. This might get more people thinking about pushing the AMA into a more fair pricing curve... Thanks, Kloudking
Well this is the thread starter DickCorby does this post seem like it was started by a
One bitter or unknowlegable person started it and so far it has accomllished nothing.
It certainly does not sound that way to me. This thread has a lot of good discussion, if you don't have anything to say don't, but this person does not seem bitter or unknowlegeable at all.

In fact the original point - lost by many in the thread is an excellent thought. Why should a 15oz parkflier pay what the Turbine 150mph jet guy does? Why should he pay the same as the guy who flies a 40lb ?

That is a good question. I certainly feel it is. We are having a great AMA discussion. Where is the bitter unknowlegeable part of the thread start?

By the way unknowledgeable is spelled this way, not like in your post.

Pretty low number considering that now they are in the 200 thousands. Can that many people all be wrong??
No the issue is the many thousands of fliers that are not members.

Example, I am at a social function last night. I guy leans over to me tells me that he has always wanted to fly - will I help him. He has a Slow-v purchased and is ready to go.

He has never heard of the AMA. When I told him about that, he said that he wanted to learn anyway, and that he didn't have the $58 to get started. I told him about the trial membership, he felt that was much more reasonable.

I'm glad you are happy, the original thread start comment is certainly fair game, in fact I know the AMA executive council has discussed that very issue!

Certainly nothing bitter or unknowlegeable.

Mike
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Old 10-16-2005, 01:58 AM
  #64  
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I think it would be entirely too dificult to police who paid what for flying "x" plane. Lets say you join, you have a parkflyer, then a few months down the road you decide you want a large gas warplane let alone a 200mph multi-thousand dollar turbine. It would have to be on your honor to call AMA and say "I know I just have the little parkflyer membership and insurance, but now I bought my jet and have to upgrade to that level". Or just the opposite, you decide the mega jet isnt worth flying or maintaining anymore so you sell it and go back to your SlowStick. Then you would have to call the AMA and try and get credit back or something ridiculous. It just cant really be done, and I dont see it as being worth it for AMA to try and work it out.

Going back to my SCCA days again. I paid $70 a year. Everybody paid the same. It didnt matter if you were racing an old MG or Triumph or a brand new Viper or Ferrari. It also didnt matter if you were club racing around tracks or racing in a solo event in the mall parking lot. Believe me, there is a ton more involved in setting up a high speed track event with 20+ cars running at the same time vs. setting up an autocross course in a parking lot. It didnt matter. The SCCA was one entity and they fought pretty equally for everybody. It didnt matter if you were looking to keep that parking lot open for your Sunday autocross or securing that logging road for a weekend Rally event. Without them, it would be rather difficult for Joe Schmoe to walk in off the street and start setting up cones and timers.

I am happily going to join the AMA even though I dont plan on using their fields. If they are lobbying and working for a mutual interest, and willing to provide insurance coverage on top of that I dont have a problem with $58 or even more. I can drop that in seconds without thinking about it just ordering parts, supplies, or a new kit. I dont see how anybody who takes this hobby even semi-seriously can consider that to be too much money.
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Old 10-16-2005, 02:04 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by debhicks View Post
How far are you from Woodruff? Check this out www.joenall.com
Actually I am not far from that field at all. I plan on attending Joe Nall next year. I hear its quite the event. When I lived in OH, I had friends who drove down here for that event every year. Now they are rather jealous I am right here and plan on staying with me...

I also plan on going next weekend to Woodruff for the jet event. I have never seen a 200+mph turbine powered model plane before and think it should be quite the eye opener!

Thank you also for the link to the AMA guide. I do plan on joining, its just nice to know where and how the money is being spent. I also wouldnt mind flying with others, I have met a few online who are semi-local. We just cant seem to get our schedules to work. I usually try and fly on my lunch hour, and the weekends are time spent with my wife and dogs.
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Old 10-16-2005, 01:48 PM
  #66  
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Well I fly with my Husband and take my dogs on the weekend. Our field is on a farm and I have the dogs trained to not chase the planes. If I am not mistaken you can take both to the Confederate Air Farce. You may like to find out what the membership is for that club. You may be surprised at what you get for the cost of membership.

My husband got me flying so that took care of that problem. Smart man I'd say. I know how much he loves to fly so I would support him even if I didn't fly. As we work together 24/7 and we just pal around together and do everything together. Like it that way.

I am going to go out on a limb here but if someone checks, I will Tuesday, but Jets have to pay more money to be able to have coverage with the AMA. They have to have waivers and go through a thorough program to get certified to fly or else they can't at a sanctioned field.

As much as we don't want to believe that a 6 to 15 ounce plane will not harm anyone they can. Had some kids throwing around those little gillows balsa gliders and one hit the truck and chipped the paint. I honestly did not realize they have lead in them. Guess I've never put one together.

A pebble looks harmless until it's picked up by a tire and thrown through your windshield at 55 +. You'll be calling your insurance company the next day. Had a piece of rubber hit mine just about 4 weeks ago. I now have a new windshield, thanks to my insurance.

I guess I could go on and on about AMA for all who are reading but the bottom line is this, it's all fun until someone gets hurt. When it does are you going to own up to and ask your homeowners insurance to take care of it? If so then fine.

The parkflying, empty lot and backyard flying still raised the unsafe practice of non-frequency control. An issue that is a huge concern for the AMA. Actually that is really the only reason I push the AMA and educate, as we have a competition flyer who practices with his 40% and 33% sponsored Aircraft at our field. And we have a backyard flyer who doesn't think it's important that he won't either become educated about the AMA or join the club so he can fly safely without doing some major damage to the large aircraft.

It's ok for those of us to fly small aircraft, but we have to and must be able to bear the responsibility of a 40% aircraft crashing in a crowd, someones house or vehicle because we don't think we need to conform to a membership to play with out toys. Murphy's law is alive and well. If it can happen it eventually will and a lesson I have personnaly learned in life, never say never. I always end up doing it in the end.

Hope I said that right. It's just food for thought because no matter what our decisions are in life, we are responsible for our actions. There is only a small window of time where we are able to do things and not be held accountable for our actions, good or bad. Most here have far surpassed that window of time.
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Old 10-16-2005, 02:19 PM
  #67  
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If the point of this thread is why should the guy flying a park flyer pay the same as a person flying giant scale, then here is my response:

1. The AMA is more than just insurance. The non-insurance costs are the same no matter what plane you fly.

2. The insurance costs may not be as different as you protray. Sure, a larger model has more kinentic energy than a park flyer. But a propeller cut is the same. Fires started from a crash would cost the same. Planes flown at a big field might cause less damage due to the increased distance between the plane and bystanders. How many claims have come from lipo fires burning cars and houses? The answer is that we don't know if the insurance risk is less based on aircraft size alone. I remember the debate between the giant scale community and the racers over who possed a higher risk.

3. In the end, it may cost more to administer a sized based dues structure and wipe out any savings. How would you define a park flyer since the manufactures cann't seem to do it themselves. What about a fast small plane (think pylon racer with a 30" span) verses a "large" park flyer like a SA plane? Do we want the AMA to go out and investagate every claim to make sure the plane fit in what ever category you were insured for. "I'm sorry sir, but you plane was 20 grams over the weight limit"

Just my two cents.

John
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Old 10-16-2005, 03:26 PM
  #68  
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About different insurance for different sized planes - it's already a moot point.

There are sports domes across the country, which permit flying micro and park flyers for a fee - with the size restrictions being determined locally by each dome itself. And as far as I know, all done without requiring the pilots to have AMA insurance.

Wrongly or rightly, this market sector took off without the AMA.

And one must also wonder about sports. I'll bet more kids are harmed each year getting hit with baseballs, baseball bats, throwing blocks, making tackles, getting tackled, kicked, hit with hockey sticks, hockey pucks, each year than will ever be harmed by RC planes. And same for property damage. I'll bet most of you have thrown a baseball through someone's window. And some of you have beaned a kid with a baseball too.

So how on earth does the sporting crowd get away with it? Not buying insurance! It's just not right. We should sue.
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Old 10-16-2005, 04:17 PM
  #69  
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People are already suing. For everything!
If you have different costs for different sizes of models, all its going to do is cause angst amongst club members. Especially if the club's officers are the old glow stalwarts. "you got a park foamy, therefore you only allowed to fly at the end of the field". "stay away from the landing area where the real planes land"!!!! And foamy members will say, "hay, I pay my club dues just like everyone else"! And an old crabby member says, "why does he get to pay half AMA dues"? "He's flying an aircraft which is a powered projectile"! There'd be arguments at every club meeting. I say, everyone pays the same. You don't pay for AMA, you aint flying at the field.
I had posted before, with all the public parks and places shutting down anything RC controlled, parkflyers eventually are gonna have to AMA to fly. All it takes is for one idiot to do something stupid and you lose your priveledge to fly at your location. Think you got a "secret" place to fly?
All it takes is one person to see it or know about it and then it hits the fan! They're gonna tell somebody and that person tells somebody and the next time you sneak away to your flying area, there are dozen others there. With all these RTF's hitting the market, it may happen sooner than you think.

Dave...
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Old 10-16-2005, 07:04 PM
  #70  
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After opening this can of worms, and not belonging to the AMA for almost 10 years, there have been several compelling arguments that you guys have stated, I just re-upped.. I still wish there was a way to get the membership Without the magazine..Just not interested in all of the reports and propaganda..I just hope I don't recieve extras in the mail that they expect me to pay for.. It's not that I am cheap or don't have the money,I find being solicited for ANYTHING, by any advertisers ,that I have not specfically asked for, offensive..!!!!!!! CD's DVD's etc.. I don't know if I will feel any better belonging to the AMA again, but the insurance will be in place, and according to you guys give me peace of mind..!!! While flying at the local park.
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Old 10-16-2005, 09:09 PM
  #71  
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Good points all, it would be tough to regulate the "park flyer" part of the hobby. A graduated scale would take work and drive administrative cost.

kloudking - welcome back to the AMA. Most of us here on the forums are members. I join to be a part of the team, and to be honest they did an excellent job getting us the frequency use we simply would not have had being a group of otherwise unorganized modelers.

The AMA is certainly not without issues. I wish we could find some solution to get the new guys on. Their trial membership is a great step in the right direction.

You will be happy to know the Model Aviation rag is FAR superior to what it used to be, even 6 months ago. They are heading in the right direction with the publication - especially in their coverage of electric models.

Mike
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Old 10-16-2005, 10:31 PM
  #72  
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Hey Mike I'll believe that when I get the first mag..I hope your right seeing that all of my other subscriptions need renewing.. Jack
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Old 10-17-2005, 02:05 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Rugar View Post
Its this kind of attitude that has caused insurance rates to skyrocket, and this counrty to go to hell! Gonna sue over a scratch? Give me a break!
Yes, but this is what we have to deal with. It's the real world, and we can't stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. You scratch young Jimmy with your pokey little wing, and screaming soccer mom will drag you into court for every penny she can get. Don't be surprised if they wheel little Jimmy into the court room with his arm in a cast and his head all bandaged... Momma needs a new SUV, and gas is expensive these days...

"We have to deal with the real world," summarizes the need for the AMA up in a nutshell. It's a fact of life, and no amount of spitting, sputtering, huffing, puffing, and posturing will change that. Yeah, it would be great if the rest of the world would change, would see things OUR way. Ain't gonna happen, unfortunately.

The rest of the world is going to view even the most harmless little electric plane as a dangerous, disruptive Cuisinart ready to chew their children to pieces.
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Old 10-17-2005, 02:18 AM
  #74  
Rugar
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Originally Posted by Matt Kirsch View Post
Yes, but this is what we have to deal with. It's the real world, and we can't stick our heads in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist. You scratch young Jimmy with your pokey little wing, and screaming soccer mom will drag you into court for every penny she can get. Don't be surprised if they wheel little Jimmy into the court room with his arm in a cast and his head all bandaged... Momma needs a new SUV, and gas is expensive these days...

"We have to deal with the real world," summarizes the need for the AMA up in a nutshell. We have to; it's a fact of life, and no amount of spitting, sputtering, huffing, puffing, and posturing will change that.
And I agree 100%. It was the part about a RC modeler making those threats against other RC modelers that got to me with him knowing that the exact same thing could happen to him. BTW, I am a AMA and a club member.

Gerald
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Old 10-17-2005, 09:02 PM
  #75  
Duster52
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Originally Posted by Rugar View Post
And I agree 100%. It was the part about a RC modeler making those threats against other RC modelers that got to me with him knowing that the exact same thing could happen to him. BTW, I am a AMA and a club member.

Gerald
I took it as simply making a point! What he said is exactly what some out there would say, in a New York minute!

With everything said here, trying to convince fliers to join the AMA, there is ONE thing that got me to join. The fact that we have lobbying power with a large group that we would not have otherwise. I can't understand why some of you can't see that the AMA has stopped others from taking away our radio freq's, stopping us from flying where we do. There are tons of uninformed people in this world who think of our hobby as silly toys that are too dangerous and are hogging radio freq's they want for their pet projects! It takes a strong armed organization, such as the AMA, to fight them! That includes the little radios the little, harmless, parkfliers have to use! There is debate, right now, about how high we are going to be allowed to fly! The FAA has suggests 400 feet and may make it the law! The AMA is trying to work with them for something a little more usable. I get my Slow Stick higher than that all the time!!! I like to take photos from high up. It could be stopped.

Tim Green says "Wrongly or rightly, this market sector took off without the AMA. "............What does that have to do with anything?

Those of you who do not want to join (nobody says you have to join) are still getting to use privileges gotten or saved for you by those who pay AMA dues. Enjoy!
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