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Open AMA Discussion Thread (Park Pilot Program Included)

Old 01-04-2008, 03:35 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
Paul -- I understand what you are saying. However, that doesn't change the fact that 99% of the time that a newbie visits an AMA sanctioned field, they get the "cold shoulder". Don't believe me? Ask around -- just don't ask those in your club. :o
I love it.. 99% Really!? Where'd you get that stat? I am another one of many on this thread that have a great club that welcomed me and my son with our little electrics with open arms!

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
Give me a break!

Why would Congress or the President ban RC?

Why not just ban Play Dough, or Shrinkie Dinks? Do these people have lobbiests on their side? [/sarcasm]

Where I live (Oklahoma), there is PLENTY of space to do whatever I want -- even if it's illegal... For example, if I want to shoot an automatic weapon, I simply buy 10 acres of land, and do whatever I want!
Probably... but the other 99% of us don't have all that room. A lot of fields are getting shut down due to urban sprawl and the AMA does a lot to help prevent that, and/or help find new locations for the clubs to move to.

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
I didn't get an AMA membership (or a PPP membership) for Christmas, so I guess I'm still and outcast outlaw...

You are the one calling yourself an outlaw. I have not seen anyone else in this thread say you are. Sounds like you are looking for a fight. I don't think you'll get it though. I don't think a non AMA memebr is an outlaw at all... IF you don't need it don't get it. But don't knock the rest who do...
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:11 AM
  #102  
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I wish I was near you Bill, There is only one AMA field near by me. Of all the events and fun-fly's I've been to, I've only hand one AMA member include me - and he was the friend I would go with.

I know that's not the case everywhere, but those feelings and treatments DO exist.

FWIW, I like outlaws. They keep it interesting. (They keep me employed too )
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:31 AM
  #103  
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Bill -- please explain to me how I'm knocking "the people who do" (who are AMA members)?

I'm not the one looking for a fight. :o
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:51 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by denial15 View Post
FWIW, I like outlaws. They keep it interesting. (They keep me employed too )
I wouldn't ever worry about that. There will always be people who want to take things that don't belong to them.

Wouldn't this be a wonderful world if there wasn't?

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:02 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by denial15 View Post
I wish I was near you Bill, There is only one AMA field near by me. Of all the events and fun-fly's I've been to, I've only hand one AMA member include me - and he was the friend I would go with.

I know that's not the case everywhere, but those feelings and treatments DO exist.
I noticed in this thread that you are not currently an AMA member. Most, if not all, Fun fly-ins require folks to be an AMA member.

I have no doubt that you can meet people that are not very friendly. No one knows that better than you I suppose. But I must admit, everyone I have met personally involved in this hobby has been very friendly and helpful. I read posts on these forums all the time about folks going way above and beyond to help others in this hobby. Many. many more than the stories you read about getting a cold shoulder at local flying fields.

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:23 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by FlyWheel View Post
I just got a DVD in the mail today put out by the AMA. It's sort of a video magazine with short "films" of different aircraft, divided into chapters each dedicated to a different type (Giant gassers, electrics, heli's, etc.). I can either return this, or send in $9 and they will continue to send new ones periodically. I keep and pay for the ones I want, send back the ones I don't (remember the old Time-Life book series?).

I was wondering has anybody else gotten one of these? Did you like it? Do you think they will all be like the first one, a mixed sampling of different flying types or each one dedicated to a specific type of flying?

Flywheel,
While I do defend the AMA in a lot of instances, this is one area that upsets me.

This type of selling is the lowest form I know of.

There have been others that kept the DVD and were assailed with repeated demands for payment.

Another poor decision on the AMA's part was the constant "reminder" to fill out a biography for their listing.Then spend $ 80 on their member list.

Due to these sales gimmicks, I am not too enamored with the AMA right now, but I still think it's worthwhile if only for the strength we have in numbers.

If others don't think Congress or public pressure would or could have an effect on RC, just think what would happen if some terrorist figured out some way of using a model plane to carry out some attack.

I think now more than ever we need a strong unified voice of reason in Washington.

Paul
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:16 PM
  #107  
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Flywheel,

I cannot answer your question as I have not seen them yet. I'm sure they will be quite interesting though. Let us know what you find out.

Thanks,

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:09 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
If others don't think Congress or public pressure would or could have an effect on RC, just think what would happen if some terrorist figured out some way of using a model plane to carry out some attack.

I think now more than ever we need a strong unified voice of reason in Washington.
Please -- this is a "doomsday" scenario that AMA members like to throw out there to scare people into joining. Interestingly enough, scare tactics tend to keep people OUT of organizations.

Let's focus on FACTS, not "what if" scenarios...
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:14 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
Please -- this is a "doomsday" scenario that AMA members like to throw out there to scare people into joining. Interestingly enough, scare tactics tend to keep people OUT of organizations.

Let's focus on FACTS, not "what if" scenarios...
Guy,

I don't think that was a Pro or Con statement for the AMA that Paul gave. He was merely asking a rhetorical question. (or would that be "stating" a rhetorical question?) No one is looking for another for or against AMA debate. We can go elsewhere for that as you know quite well.


It is true that there are strength in numbers.

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:17 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
Guy,

I don't think that was a Pro or Con statement for the AMA that Paul gave. He was merely asking a rhetorical question. (or would that be "stating" a rhetorical question?) No one is looking for another for or against AMA debate. We can go elsewhere for that as you know quite well.


It is true that there are strength in numbers.

Frank
Frank -- you asked why there is a rift between AMA and non-AMA members. I have been pretty darned quiet (see posts 36 and 38), with respect to that statement -- but I will tell you that "scare tactic" statements like that add to the rift.

If you truly want to know what causes the rift, please don't dismiss people when they tell you the truth! :o
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:22 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
just think what would happen if some terrorist figured out some way of using a model plane to carry out some attack.

Paul
While I hate to say no one ever "always" or "nevers", I think I can comfortably say this will NEVER happen. For one reason alone

RC powered attack: Costs money and training.

Religious kamikaze zealot. Free.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:29 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
Frank -- you asked why there is a rift between AMA and non-AMA members. I have been pretty darned quiet (see posts 36 and 38), with respect to that statement -- but I will tell you that "scare tactic" statements like that add to the rift.

If you truly want to know what causes the rift, please don't dismiss people when they tell you the truth! :o
I thought we came to the conclusion that there are as many reasons why some folks join the AMA and some do not as there are people involved in this hobby. In other words, we will never know. It isn't really worth discussing after all I guess. As another put it to me, "you have to expect people to actually BE HONEST (caps added for emphasis) in a discussion of this nature; good luck in that." So I pretty much gave up on trying to figure out those reasons -I think that occurred to me around Christmas time.

I don't think there is a rift actually. There are just members and non-members.

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:49 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
I noticed in this thread that you are not currently an AMA member. Most, if not all, Fun fly-ins require folks to be an AMA member.

I have no doubt that you can meet people that are not very friendly. No one knows that better than you I suppose. But I must admit, everyone I have met personally involved in this hobby has been very friendly and helpful. I read posts on these forums all the time about folks going way above and beyond to help others in this hobby. Many. many more than the stories you read about getting a cold shoulder at local flying fields.

Frank
I don't have anything against the "AMA". I just haven't joined yet. With that said, I agree with the LT's previous post.
Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
If you truly want to know what causes the rift, please don't dismiss people when they tell you the truth! :o
That is something that gets irritating sometimes, and this happens a lot. Someone asks why you do or don't do something. The person answers, then quickly gets bombarded with "that doesn't exist", or "that can't happen" type comments.

In your above post you say " Most, if not all, Fun fly-ins require folks to be an AMA member." sure, if I want to fly in the event, but you don't have to be an AMA member just to go to it. In the "other" forum's AMA thread, I was always being told that those treatments do not exist, and I should just go to an event so I could feel the open, welcoming arms of a group of AMA (paraphrasing) members.

I was always being told about how you can fly if you are with an AMA member, and I should just go and be involved. BUT when I try that, I still get the cold shoulder, and now you indicate it's because I'm not a member of the AMA.

Please don't take this as an attack. I'm not angry, and I don't have anything against you, but this is a hot topic for a lot of people. Sometimes the "it doesn't exist" statements seem as far off base as me saying "I've never flown nitro so they must not exist". The ignorance of some people is laughable at times.

Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
I read posts on these forums all the time about folks going way above and beyond to help others in this hobby. Many. many more than the stories you read about getting a cold shoulder at local flying fields.

Frank
I agree. While this type of experience is more common, it doesn't have the same influence as a negative experience, and that's unfortunate. While I've advocated the side that some people do not join because of the treatment they receive from AMA members, that is not biasing my reason for not having joined yet. I just haven't.

Frank, I understand that by not being an AMA members at events, I will not be privy to some of the activities and benefits - that makes sense. But I shouldn't need to be an AMA member just so I can be included in conversations and made to feel welcome. If I went to these activities and was a wallflower and not talking to anyone, that would be a good reason why no one included me. But when I go to them and am introduced by my friend "this is Dan, he's been flying for a few years." and try to get involved and ask questions and get the cold shoulder, that is because them.

I'm not saying it's the AMA's fault, but it reflects poorly. I have enough common sense and reason to understand that just because a member of the AMA is a useless @$$, it doesn't mean the same for the AMA. Not everyone can see that though.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:00 PM
  #114  
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Guy, I don't think my post would qualify for an add campaign for the AMA.

Personally I don't care if every pilot out there joins or not.

I believe everyone has the same right to fly, whether it be in a park or a AMA sanctioned site.
And no , I don't think you have to be a member of the AMA to enjoy modeling.

If you decide not to join, I would still be happy to fly with you.

In my previous post..

Now if you think that's an unfair scare tactic, think again.

I see people posting "how high they fly" some are in rural areas but some fly near airways used by full sized planes.

A few years back I nearly hit a RC sailplane flown near an airport at about 1,200 feet.

This type of event could cause the same problem.

Remember if I crash the full sized plane because I was damaged by a model, the media would be all over it.

Since 911, I have seen a lot of restrictions imposed on general aviation that a few years earlier I wouldn't have believed possible.


One more thing, I too have been a recipient of the cold shoulder, and I am a member of the AMA.
Doesn't mean a thing.


Paul
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:48 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
I don't think there is a rift actually. There are just members and non-members.
THANK YOU! This is exactly how I feel!!! Yet, many times, I get the impression I am on the "outside" of a "good old boy's network". :o

Originally Posted by denial15 View Post
...But when I go to them and am introduced by my friend "this is Dan, he's been flying for a few years." and try to get involved and ask questions and get the cold shoulder, that is because them.
In this scenario, how would the AMA member know you were NOT an AMA member? Answer --> The "badge" that so many club/AMA members wear around, to show everyone they're a member! "You don't have one? Why are you here?" Maybe this isn't really the thought of the AMA member -- but PERCEPTION is REALITY in the minds of the non-AMA member!!!

Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
If you decide not to join, I would still be happy to fly with you.
Thank you -- I lost my head earlier. I apologize. :o

Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
Remember if I crash the full sized plane because I was damaged by a model, the media would be all over it.
Well, this is another "what if scenario", "scare tactic" I dealt with over on RCGroups, that some AMA members like to use to "strong arm" people to join the AMA...

If you do some research, you will find that it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for an RC airplane to take down a full sized airplane. The research I did was on bird strikes, simply because I figure a typical park flyer is about the size of a bird. What I found is that NO single bird strike has EVER caused a fatality in the contenential United States. World wide, there were something like SEVEN instances of single bird strikes which caused fatalities EVER. Yes, birds take out engines, windshields, parts of fuselages and wings -- but the airplane is amazingly resiliant to single bird strikes -- after all, they are ENGINEERED to be bird-strike-survivable! (The actual numbers are posted over on RCGroups, if you care to verify.)

Think about that for a moment -- how many flights have EVER happened? What is the percent chance that a single bird strike will take down an airplane, if it's only done it SEVEN times, EVER?! Is that miniscule chance REALLY worth using as a "stong-arm" tactic to get people to join the AMA?

Again, this kind of thing adds to the rift, discussed earlier. :o

Now -- if a 757 flys into a "flock" of twenty, 5-pound Sureflite Warbirds, it might have some trouble...
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:00 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by denial15 View Post
I don't have anything against the "AMA". I just haven't joined yet. With that said, I agree with the LT's previous post.

That is something that gets irritating sometimes, and this happens a lot. Someone asks why you do or don't do something. The person answers, then quickly gets bombarded with "that doesn't exist", or "that can't happen" type comments.

In your above post you say " Most, if not all, Fun fly-ins require folks to be an AMA member." sure, if I want to fly in the event, but you don't have to be an AMA member just to go to it. In the "other" forum's AMA thread, I was always being told that those treatments do not exist, and I should just go to an event so I could feel the open, welcoming arms of a group of AMA (paraphrasing) members.

I was always being told about how you can fly if you are with an AMA member, and I should just go and be involved. BUT when I try that, I still get the cold shoulder, and now you indicate it's because I'm not a member of the AMA.

Please don't take this as an attack. I'm not angry, and I don't have anything against you, but this is a hot topic for a lot of people. Sometimes the "it doesn't exist" statements seem as far off base as me saying "I've never flown nitro so they must not exist". The ignorance of some people is laughable at times.

I agree. While this type of experience is more common, it doesn't have the same influence as a negative experience, and that's unfortunate. While I've advocated the side that some people do not join because of the treatment they receive from AMA members, that is not biasing my reason for not having joined yet. I just haven't.

Frank, I understand that by not being an AMA members at events, I will not be privy to some of the activities and benefits - that makes sense. But I shouldn't need to be an AMA member just so I can be included in conversations and made to feel welcome. If I went to these activities and was a wallflower and not talking to anyone, that would be a good reason why no one included me. But when I go to them and am introduced by my friend "this is Dan, he's been flying for a few years." and try to get involved and ask questions and get the cold shoulder, that is because them.

I'm not saying it's the AMA's fault, but it reflects poorly. I have enough common sense and reason to understand that just because a member of the AMA is a useless @$$, it doesn't mean the same for the AMA. Not everyone can see that though.
Denial,

I do not know how to comment to your post except to say that I am sorry you have been treated this way. Like I said, there are jerks everywhere and our hobby is no exception to that rule.

I went to a Fun Fly sponsored by FiremanBill's club last Sep and both members and non-members attended. I think a great time was had by all. I pretty much chatted with everyone there about something or another and I learned quite a bit from a lot of folks and I hope they learned a few things from me also. For those who act as elitists just because someone is not a member is their fault AND downfall, don't let it bother you.

It is OK not to be an AMA member just like it is OK not to fly balsa built planes (although I'm having trouble with that one).

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:16 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
Denial,

I do not know how to comment to your post except to say that I am sorry you have been treated this way. Like I said, there are jerks everywhere and our hobby is no exception to that rule.

I went to a Fun Fly sponsored by FiremanBill's club last Sep and both members and non-members attended. I think a great time was had by all. I pretty much chatted with everyone there about something or another and I learned quite a bit from a lot of folks and I hope they learned a few things from me also. For those who act as elitists just because someone is not a member is their fault AND downfall, don't let it bother you.

It is OK not to be an AMA member just like it is OK not to fly balsa built planes (although I'm having trouble with that one).

Frank
Your spot on.

Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
don't let it bother you.
I don't. But other's do. If someone gets offended, it's THEIR own choice that they made. It you were to kick me in the kneecaps, and I get mad, I made that choice to get mad. Some people go to these events and get mad or offended because of how they were treated, but that was a choice they made. I learned years ago that I am the one in control of my actions and emotions. (But if you kick me in the kneecaps, I'll probably kick you back.)
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:22 PM
  #118  
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Guy, That's not a scare tactic I use lightly.

Birds have taken airplanes down.

" That did it. Electras took to the skies with restored energy and speed. And then on October 4, 1960, an Eastern Electra taking off from Boston to New York crashed into Boston Bay, killing all 72 aboard.
The clamor rose up again to ground the Electras, but it was discovered on examining the mainly intact wreckage that large numbers of English starlings had been ingested into the Electra's wide engine intakes. This caused the engines to "flame out." The plane lost lift, stalled, and fell into the bay. Although this new problem was severe- for all airliners- it was fortunate in a way that this was a separate problem. "

This is the first one that came to mind.

General aviation airplanes are not capable of withstanding a Bird or model airplane strike in all instances.

Most general aviation planes windshields are only 1/8 Plexiglas. Not mush protection.

Personally, I've put birds through the nose, and an engine nacelle, and damaged a tail (vertical fin) severely.

A model can be heavier than a bird and the mass more concentrated and possibly could do more damage.

A former friend was killed when he ingested a piece of foam rubber into his carb air intake.

Anything can happen.

If it does I would like a voice at the ready to spin the subject in our favor for once.

Paul
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:29 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
The clamor rose up again to ground the Electras, but it was discovered on examining the mainly intact wreckage that large numbers of English starlings had been ingested into the Electra's wide engine intakes.
Sigh... Please read my post again, and understand we are talking about SINGLE bird strikes, not MULTIPLE bird strikes.

Yes, if you fly through a flock of Sureflite Warbirds, and take out both engines of a 757, the airplane will come down...

Again, this is a "doomsday" scenario, and is outside the scope of reality. There has NEVER (in ALL OF CONTENTIAL US AVATION HISTORY) been a case of a SINGLE bird strike taking down an airplane and causing a single loss of life! (Have I mentioned that my uncle was an air crash investigator, responsible for determining if the engines were running when the aircraft hit the ground?)

Seriously -- I see "doomsday" scenarios spoken as fact (and good reason to join the AMA/clubs) all the time, and it just rubs me the wrong way.
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:32 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Lieutenant Loughead View Post
THANK YOU! This is exactly how I feel!!! Yet, many times, I get the impression I am on the "outside" of a "good old boy's network". :o
Well I have to admit, I really enjoy hanging out with the fellas at my flying club. Some of those guys have been flying since the '60s (some since last year) and I'd miss out on all of that if I wasn't a member. I can see how you would feel "outside" missing that experience. They are very eager to share their knowledge with me. All it takes for me is to show a little interest in what they are doing or flying and they are more than willing to let me know about it.

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:33 PM
  #121  
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Guy,
I did re read your post, and you did say a single bird strike.
My error.

I also did not say that it was a fact that a model has taken a full sized plane down.
I said it's possible.

General aviation airplanes are not built to the standards of airliners.
The skin on the tail of my 310 was only .016 thick. Not much thicker than a piece of paper.

Watch the Mythbusters episode with the chicken gun.
The chicken not only goes through the windshield, but nearly comes out the tail.
If you were sitting in it's path, you be hurting.

Respectfully I have to disagree on this, I don't see that as doomsday scenario strong arm tactics.
Still doesn't mean I won't fly with you.
At a park.

Paul
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:36 PM
  #122  
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While we are on the subject of birdstrikes.

http://www.birdstrike.org/

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:39 PM
  #123  
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Frank, Nice info.

Paul
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:44 PM
  #124  
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I certainly cleaned up my share of bird guts in my time.

I know what damage they can do.

Frank
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:48 PM
  #125  
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Frank, as I said, I've put them through the nose and ruined a radar dish.

And I've put them through a cowl, a nice strong fiberglass nacelle.

The windshield is not nearly as strong as the cowl.
And yes it is a very messy clean up.

Paul
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