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Scorpion Motor Q&A - Show us your Scorpion!

Old 06-16-2008, 06:23 PM
  #151  
Ramovan
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Liquidity,

The Deuces Wild is a cool airplane and I'm considering building it myself. The Scorpion 3026-12 motor is good choice since it is equivalent to an E-Flite Power 32 which is the larger motor they recommend for that plane.

For a dual powered airplane it is perfectly acceptable to join the two ESCs servos leads together with a Y-harness to make use of the power from both BECs, but I would not recommend you use the BECs on a 4S setup. This is basically true for any ESC with a linear BEC as any voltage over 5v must be converted into heat. This heat will build up rather quickly and cause the ESC to shut down... obviously this would not be good during a flight. You're also running quite a few sevos, most of which are digital which require more power so I would definetely use an external BEC like the Dimension Engineering SportBEC or a seperate Rx battery. You're going to have some $$ in that plane so it's not worth the risk just to save $28.

If you were running 3S packs you'd be fine using the on-board BECs. If you wanted to save some money and some weight you could step up the Kv on the motor by choosing the 3026-10 motor instead. On 13x6.5 props and 3S lipos this motor would put out around 90oz of thrust for a combined 180oz of thrust. The Deuces Wild's flying weight is 160oz if we figure it on the heavy side so this is still well over a 1:1 power ratio. Since you would save some weight on the battery using a 3S instead of a 4S, and wouldn't need an external BEC this could be very similar in performance to the 3026-12.

Remember, you can join the two ESCs together to run on the same lipo pack if you wish. This would even be preffered because both ESCs would be running on the identical voltage. You would also drop a lot of weight by doing this. There's a wiring harness just for this purpose...
http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-74...Harness/Detail

Let me know your thoughts on this.
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:49 PM
  #152  
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I am going to run with 2 seperate 4s lipos. I like the added power with a 4s system. Granted running 2 lipos on 2 seperate motors presents a small situation, but since the batteries are mounted in each nacelle and not in the cockpit, it is a no brainer to me.

So let me ensure I have this correct. I will run each motor into the esc. On esc number 1, I will connect it to the SportBEC. On ESC number 2, I will remove the red wire from the esc mounting tab, thus disabling ESCs number 2 BEC. I will then run a "Y" connector from SportBEC and ESC number 2 (with BEC disabled) into the Throttle port of the RX.

Sounds easy enough.
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:58 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by Liquidity View Post
So let me ensure I have this correct. I will run each motor into the esc. On esc number 1, I will connect it to the SportBEC. On ESC number 2, I will remove the red wire from the esc mounting tab, thus disabling ESCs number 2 BEC. I will then run a "Y" connector from SportBEC and ESC number 2 (with BEC disabled) into the Throttle port of the RX.
Thats is correct. The SportBEC basically disables the BEC on ESC #1 for you but still passes the signal thru to the receiver.

With 2 4S 4000mah packs you're going to have some seriously long run times on that plane! I would think 30 minute flights are easily accomplished.

Let us know how it turns out.
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Old 06-16-2008, 07:32 PM
  #154  
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I will let you all know. I am going to wait on the plane to arrive before I get the lipos. I have been eyeing the Zippy-R lipos, however the stated length is 160mm.

When the plane arrives, I will personnally check it out. John from Eflite said they will fit, but I want to double check for myself before I purchase them.

Since the plane is not due in until July (according to John, the website is incorrect) I will let you know when I finally complete it how it does.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:21 PM
  #155  
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Hello,
I've dabbled here and there with some basic electric models (small scale boats) but I've become interested in a new project. I know this isn't specifically about RC planes but this is the only forum I found that might be able to help me. I'm interested in constructing an electric skateboard with the motor of choice being a scorpion 600watt motor (Scorpion 3014-16 1187kv 600 Watt Brushless Motor). From what I understand, if i connect that to a brushless speed controller and then a simple reciever, I would be able to control the speed with a basic pistol grip radio. However I have no experience with brushless motors and only have a limited understanding of how they work...If someone could help me out with the specifics that would be amazing. I think with a 45 amp speed control would be a good match ([email protected]=540 watts?) something like this? (http://www.bmkdesigns.net/Scorpion-4...ol-pr-204.html) Will this connect to a standard reciever though? I'm starting to get frustrated and don't want to make any costly mistakes..

Thanks in advance for any help
Kevin
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Old 07-14-2008, 10:53 PM
  #156  
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Yesterday I logged flight number 502 on my Scorpion 3026-10 powered 3DHS Extra 300 SHP.

Needless to say scorpion runs just as great as it did on the first flight.
Mostly I run 4S A123 2300 mAh and develop just over 600 watts with an APC 12X8E. Sometime I fly it with 5S A123 and then it develops 960 watts. I even flew wuith with a 4S 3300 mAh Revolectrx LiPoly a couple of times and that was good for 1100 watts.


Charles
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Old 07-14-2008, 11:52 PM
  #157  
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Everydayflyer,

Man, you really are an every day flyer! Wish I could get out there more than once a week. How impressive to have so many flights on one model!

That extra is beautiful and the color scheme is great for a Scorpion powered model. Can I add it to the Scorpion page?
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:33 AM
  #158  
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Sure and perhaps even a lovely pair.


Zero Gravity Pitts Python has a scorpion 3026-12 in it . I run a APC13x6.5 and 5S A123 2300 pack. AUW 60 oz.

It is my only fly ever ounce in a while aircraft and only has 39 flights on it.

I also have an Extreme Fligh Yak 54E with a Scorpion 3020-12. 4S A123 APC 13X6.5 ,AUW 47oz.
Yak had a Torque 2814/ 820 Kv on it but I wanted more power. Scorpion gets the job done in Spades.Went from 425 watts to 650 watts.


Love my Scorpions

FYI Scorpion 2007 Products Catalog.customes comment on back cover.
Second one is mine.

Charles
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Old 07-15-2008, 03:31 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by everydayflyer View Post
FYI Scorpion 2007 Products Catalog.customes comment on back cover.
Second one is mine.
Charles
LOL! I'm the comment right under yours!
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Old 07-15-2008, 03:39 AM
  #160  
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Here's the next plane up for maiden. CMP Extra 330L with Scorpion 4025-12 on 6-cell 3300mah lipo and 16x8 prop. Auw is 120oz and it sure feels heavy, but it is calculated at 172oz of thrust so it should fly one way or another. Probably going to be a hot one coming in but should make a good aerobatic plane.

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Old 07-19-2008, 01:44 PM
  #161  
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Hello Scorpion Flyers,

I'd like a little help. I currently have the NitroModels Ultimate 40 that I've converted to electric. I know that I should have used a larger motor, but I just didn't want to give up the weight of a larger motor and larger packs to power it. The plane, currently weighs in at 5 lb 4 oz. flying weight. I know that by rule, I should have been running a 46 sized motor and 5S packs, but that would have pushed the weight to over 6 lbs.....w/ just over 42 inches of wing, I wanted to keep the wing load as low as possible.

So my current set up is an E-flight Power 32, spinning a 13 X 6 APC electric prop. I'm running the new E-Flight 60 amp ESC and 4S 4000 ma 15C packs.

The plane actually flys quite well with this setup, as the system pulls about 600 watts at slightly over 1/2 throttle and 750 watts at WOT. The problem is that at these power levels, there is little margin for error and a six minute flight yields motor temps much higher than I feel comfortable with.

I was looking over the different motor selections available from Scorpion and the 3032-10 caugh my eye. It seems this may be the answer, I've been looking for. More power handling capabilities and almost the same weight as the exisiting motor. Since this is a conversion, there isn't room for much adjustment. The battery, ESC, and mounting are what they are and a big change that would require major changes to the airframe to adjust the CG.

So, what do ya all think. Am I on the right track with the 3032-10??.....Pat
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Old 07-20-2008, 01:01 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by patnchris View Post
Hello Scorpion Flyers,

So, what do ya all think. Am I on the right track with the 3032-10??.....Pat
Hey Pat,

I've been running this around with a bunch of calculating and I'm not sure there is a move you can make that will improve your power system enough to justify a change. You really either need to add more voltage (cells) or get a larger ESC that can handle more amps.

Here's my thinking....
You have an E-Flite Power 32 which is equivalent to a Scorpion 3026-12 according to the chart...
http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpio...ison%20Web.htm

The Scorpion 3026-12 on 4S with an APC 13x6.5 thin prop will put out 114oz of thrust @ 58A max. This is right at the limit of your 60A ESC's. This would be the Scorpion equivalent of the power you have now. Here's the chart....
http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpio...12%20Specs.htm

Since there are no prop charts yet for the 3032 series of motors I opened up Scorpion Calc, but first loaded it up with the 3026-12 on 4S and APC 13x6.5 prop to see how accurate it would be. It said 110oz of thrust @ 57A. Compared to 114oz in an actual bench test the software is right on and conservative. So what if you step up to the 3032-10? Well on 4S 13x6.5 prop it calculated 114oz of thrust @ 60A. The 3032-10 motor weighs about 1.3oz more than a 3026 series so you would only be getting a net gain of 3oz of thrust. This is not worth spending the $$.

I did several other calculations with the 3032-8 and 3032-12 with different prop sizes and battery voltages, but would always hit the same conclusion - to get more power than you have now it would take more cells or a higher rated ESC. A larger motor alone will not increase your power significantly enough because they really need more voltage to run efficiently.

So what would give you more power? The 3032-12 is actually a better choice on a 5S lipo with the same APC 13x6.5 prop. This would give you 128oz of thrust and @ 57A you could still use your ESC (I'm assuming you have the 3-6 E-Flite ESC). This would give at least 18oz more thrust (just over a pound). This is a significant power increase for probably the least amount of $$.

You mentioned that your plane flies pretty well with your current setup so you'll need to decide if you want to invest in a bigger lipo pack. I'm just trying to warn you that if you buy the larger motor alone, you'll probably be dissapointed with the only slight increase in power.
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Old 07-20-2008, 09:26 PM
  #163  
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Thanks for the information. I think I may have stated what I'm trying to accomplish, wrong.....I don't need more power than what I already have. Being close to 150 watts per lb is right where I want to be. The problem is that unlike many planes, the Ultimate, has a high wing load and requires more power just to stay in the air. I'm looking for something with a little more margin. As I stated, the plane flys fine, with whats in it, other than I'm probably running right on the edge of what a Power 32 can handle. I'm looking for a motor that I can prop for the same power, I'm now getting, but can handle it for longer periods of time....(I know that sounds dumb, maybe and example will help)

With the Power 32 installed and the 13 X 6 prop, I pull approx 450 watts at half throttle and 750 watts at full throttle. Normally, this would be fine, for any plan I'd fly, as I seldom got to WOT and when I do, it's usually only for 10 or 15 seconds.....The Power 32 can handle 600 watts all day and up to 875 watts for 20 seconds. So I am within the limits. However, in the air, I find that the plane requires a lot more throttle, than I thought it would. At 1/2 throttle it is right on the edge of stalling. If I run the throttle to 3/4, the plane flys great. At Full throttle it has more than enough power to perform the maneuvers that I want. The proble is that it 3/4 throttle I am running right at the rated power of the motor and then when I push it, the motor gets a lot hotter than I feel comfortable with. I would like to replace the Power 32 with a motor that would not need to work as hard to give me the same or slightly better performance. The difference in price between the 3026 and 3032 in not enough to even talk about but I feel that the 3032 will give me what I'm looking for. I hope this makes sense, because in rereading it, it all starts to sound like some jibberish.

Changing to 5S is not really an option, nor is going with a physically larger motor. As this is a glow conversion and also a bipe, it took a lot of engineering to get everything in and balanced. The motor mounting and firewall have been reengineered and custom made to accept electric and still provide cooling to the battery compartment. The battery compartment is custom made to accept a particular battery and was made in such a way that it is like a drop in cartridge. This was all designed around the CG so that when built the plane required no additional weight to balance it and batteries can easily be swapped out without having to remove the wing or cowl. It all works together, perfectly, but I didn't realize that the plane would require as much throttle as it does, to stay in the air. I can easily compensate for an additional ounce or two of motor, but much past that, would require a complete rebuild of the front half of the airframe......Pat
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:17 PM
  #164  
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Pat,

So basically what you're looking for is better efficiency and a cooler running motor while getting the same or slightly better performance.

Scorpion motors are said to be more efficient than the E-Flite motors so here's an idea that may work. As I mentioned earlier the Power 32 is most equivalent to the Scorpion 3026-12. The Power 32 has a Kv of 770 while the Scorpion has a Kv of 830. This should mean you will get a few more RPM's from the Scorpion with a bit less throttle.

The other thing that may help is trying a Xoar 13x7 prop on the Scorpion 3026-12. These props are wood so they hold their pitch better and are a bit lighter and more efficient than the APC props. The lighter weight of the prop should make up for the slightly higher pitch. The prop change with the motor change may be enough to get you flying level at half throttle instead of 3/4 throttle. The Scorpions also have much higher temperature rating so heat isn't as much of an issue. I think with the better airflow thru the Scorpion motor it would run cooler though. It's got them beveled holes in the front that suck in air pretty well.

http://www.rcdude.com/servlet/the-10...lectric/Detail
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Old 07-20-2008, 11:40 PM
  #165  
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You've definately given me some things to think about. That prop is also interesting. Thank you very much. I need to contemplate what I'm going to do. I am thinking that the Power 32 may be a fit for and E-Flight plane I'm looking at. Since I won't need a motor for it, That would free up $$$$ to buy a Scorpion motor to put in the Ultimate.......Pat
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Old 08-18-2008, 05:27 PM
  #166  
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Looked at the chart and its not updated since they are newer motors out, I am trying to find the scorpion motor that matches the Rimfire 42-40-1000KV motor, this is the motor comes on the rx ready GP electrostick , father just got the plane and it flys great with that motor, and as always I want to find the scorpion to match it.

Thanks

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Old 08-18-2008, 06:20 PM
  #167  
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hey ramovan.i have a 3026-12 in a majic with a 55a commander esc.thinking of putting it in the 3dhs aj slick.think it will pull it nice? ill run a 4s 2500 batt i imagine
it pulls the majic very well on a 3s 3700 batt now..scorpion makes good motors no doubt
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:45 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by Manta1 View Post
hey ramovan.i have a 3026-12 in a majic with a 55a commander esc.thinking of putting it in the 3dhs aj slick.think it will pull it nice? ill run a 4s 2500 batt i imagine
it pulls the majic very well on a 3s 3700 batt now..scorpion makes good motors no doubt
The Scorpion 3026-12 is actually a good fit for the 3dhs AJ Slick which has a flying weight of 55-60oz. In a plane of this type I usually shoot for a 1.5:1 to 2:1 power-to-weight ratio. If I were powering this plane I might use a 4-cell lipo and a APC 13x6.5E prop. This would put out a bit over 114oz and pull a little over 57A which is not going to work with your current ESC. For you I think the APC 12x6E would be a better choice. This still puts out almost 98oz of thrust but only pulls 44A max so it would be easy on your ESC and probably quite a bit more efficient. This would put you slightly over a 1.6:1 power ratio (if you came in at 60oz) so the plane would have some robust power with some nice vertical performance.

Let us know how it turns out.

Randy
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:39 PM
  #169  
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thanks Randy,ill let ya know in a couple of weeks.if push comes to shove, ill up the esc.(this will give me an esc for another plane 12x6e huh?hmm im running a 3s with a 15x8 now on the majic and im pulling about 47 amps and i think only around 600 watts give or take.its been a week or two since i hit it with wattmeter.ill be retiring the majic after slick comes to town..
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Old 08-18-2008, 10:06 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by Foamiesrfun View Post
Looked at the chart and its not updated since they are newer motors out, I am trying to find the scorpion motor that matches the Rimfire 42-40-1000KV motor, this is the motor comes on the rx ready GP electrostick , father just got the plane and it flys great with that motor, and as always I want to find the scorpion to match it.

Thanks
Hey Chris,

I poked around at this a bit and determined that the Scorpion 3020-12 might be a good replacement for the Rimfire 42-40-1000. Here's some comparison...

Rimfire Scorpion
Outside Diameter - 42mm Outside Diameter - 37.5mm
Body Length - 40mm Body Length - 38mm
Kv - 1000 RPM/v Kv - 1088 RPM/v
Max Cont Amps - 45A Max Cont Amps - 57A
Max Watts - 666 watts Max Watts - 800 watts
Weight - 4.4oz Weight - 5.5oz (longer shaft on both ends)

As you can see, the Scorpion has a slightly smaller diameter and body length but can handle more watts and has a slightly higher Kv. The flying weight of the Electrostik is 3 - 3.5lbs. If you figure the weight on the heavy side 3.5lbs = 56oz. The Scorpion 3020-12 on a 3-cell lipo with an APC 12x6 prop will put out 77oz of thrust and pull a max of 42A. This is nearly a 1.4:1 power ratio. This is probably the best choice for this plane.

If you wanted more power and still wanted to remain on a 3-cell setup, or wanted to run a shorter prop for more clearance, take a look at the 3026-8 prop chart. This motor would allow you to run a 10x7 prop @ 48A with 73oz of thrust, or an 11x7 prop @62A at almost 90oz of thrust. This series of motors weighs a bit more at 6.7oz which could make you a bit nose heavy though.
http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpio...-8%20Specs.htm

Let me know what you think and maybe we can bang around some more numbers. You didn't mention what battery or prop size you would like to run and this may change the situation a bit.
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Old 08-18-2008, 10:19 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by Manta1 View Post
thanks Randy,ill let ya know in a couple of weeks.if push comes to shove, ill up the esc.(this will give me an esc for another plane 12x6e huh?hmm im running a 3s with a 15x8 now on the majic and im pulling about 47 amps and i think only around 600 watts give or take.its been a week or two since i hit it with wattmeter.ill be retiring the majic after slick comes to town..
That sounds totally right. If you want to run a 15x8 prop on the 3026-12 you could do it on a 3-cell lipo (instead of 12x6 on 4-cells). It looks like the AJ has the clearance for a 15" prop so you may want to consider this instead. According to the prop chart you'll get nearly 94oz of thrust at 53A max with your current setup. That would eliminate the need for an external BEC and your Scorpion 55A ESC would run it just fine.
http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpio...12%20Specs.htm
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Old 08-18-2008, 10:47 PM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by Ramovan View Post
Hey Chris,

I poked around at this a bit and determined that the Scorpion 3020-12 might be a good replacement for the Rimfire 42-40-1000. Here's some comparison...

Rimfire Scorpion
Outside Diameter - 42mm Outside Diameter - 37.5mm
Body Length - 40mm Body Length - 38mm
Kv - 1000 RPM/v Kv - 1088 RPM/v
Max Cont Amps - 45A Max Cont Amps - 57A
Max Watts - 666 watts Max Watts - 800 watts
Weight - 4.4oz Weight - 5.5oz (longer shaft on both ends)

As you can see, the Scorpion has a slightly smaller diameter and body length but can handle more watts and has a slightly higher Kv. The flying weight of the Electrostik is 3 - 3.5lbs. If you figure the weight on the heavy side 3.5lbs = 56oz. The Scorpion 3020-12 on a 3-cell lipo with an APC 12x6 prop will put out 77oz of thrust and pull a max of 42A. This is nearly a 1.4:1 power ratio. This is probably the best choice for this plane.

If you wanted more power and still wanted to remain on a 3-cell setup, or wanted to run a shorter prop for more clearance, take a look at the 3026-8 prop chart. This motor would allow you to run a 10x7 prop @ 48A with 73oz of thrust, or an 11x7 prop @62A at almost 90oz of thrust. This series of motors weighs a bit more at 6.7oz which could make you a bit nose heavy though.
http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpio...-8%20Specs.htm

Let me know what you think and maybe we can bang around some more numbers. You didn't mention what battery or prop size you would like to run and this may change the situation a bit.
with 4 cell A123's its 51amps,401watts and pitch speed of 51 thurst of 85 ( don't need that much not a 3d plane) 72% efficinecy
thats with a 12x6

12x8 is 53amps 431 watts pitch speed 64 thurst 81(dont need that much either) 69% efficincey

my head hurts from trying to figure this stuff out. I love the comparisions charts to bad there not one for every single motor out.
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Old 08-19-2008, 01:56 AM
  #173  
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Foamiesrfun,

How about 3020-12, 4-cell A123, APC 11x5.5?

Thats 67oz of thrust, 51mph pitch speed, 41A, 340watts, 75.4% efficiency.
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Old 08-19-2008, 02:07 AM
  #174  
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Randy here are some number that may help you with the RimFire 42-40-100Kv comparison.
First they use the 40mm to reflect the total motor length from front of X mount to rear of prop adapter (same kind as unsed on AXI). I need the measure the rotor but my guess is it is about 20mm as it is shorter than my 2826 AXI.




Note RimFire 42-40 is not really a typical 40MM length as they measure the whole motor length.

RF 42-40 from rear of case to front of case 1.330" long.Flux ring .560" long


Scorpion 3014 / 1.250" Total length flux ring .750" long so ...............

Scprpion 3008 total length 1.015" flux ring .500"

< end edit>

My Scorpion 3026-10 on 4S A123 with APC 12X8E 50A / 500 watts / 7.800 RPM
RimFire 42-42-100 Kv same battery / prop 38A / 415 watts / 7,800 RPM.

Now I need to run both back to back as Scorpion numbers were when it was a bit cooler out but it appears from the above that the RimFire is more effecient on 4S A123 with that prop.

I have a Scorpion 3020-12 on my EF Yak54E and on 4S A123 with APC 13X6.5E it makes 650 watts but I do not have the amps. watts and RPMs handy.

OK I looked at one of my static logger files and 3020-12 with 12X8 and 4S A123 60 amps. and 700 watts. That was with a warm battery fresh off of charge.


Here are a buch of numbers for the RimFire 42-40-1000 on a 4S A123 with 12X8 prop. Throttle approx

50% 10 A / 135 watts / 5,100 RPM
60% 23A / 273 watts / 6,700 RPMs
80% 29 A / 335 watts / 7,300 RPMs
100% 38.5A / 418 watt / 7,700 RPMs


5S A123
50% 12.5A / 200 watts / 6,000 RPMs
60% 28A / 425 watts / 8,300 RPMs
80% 43A / 616 watts / 8,500 RPMs
100% 54.5A / 753 watts / 8,700 RPMs.

Charles

Last edited by everydayflyer; 08-19-2008 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:00 PM
  #175  
jayxer
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 61
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RCdude, I will post pics when everything arrives and is assembled, but I just ordered a Scorpion 2208-34 and 25amp ESC I plan on putting in an Alfa Models P-47. I hope these scorpions live up to some of the hype I've been reading about. Thanks

And if you could get that order out ASAP
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