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I need help choosing an experiment plane

Old 04-20-2015, 04:22 AM
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theapplepi3.14
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Default I need help choosing an experiment plane

Now that I can do aerobatics with my delta ray I think it is time for me to choose the experiment plane I will use to run experiments on this summer. I want the following in order of importance:

1)Ability to add sensor into the wings
2)large enought to carry .5lbs of extra weight
3)inexpensivish
4)as many control surfaces as possible
5)as little extra work done on my part as possible (I'm not ready for balsa plans yet)
6)the thing I'm testing has applications for airliners so it would be cool, but not necessary to have some type of airliner rc.
I will want to control the plane using an arduino so the system does not need a transmitter or reciever.

The best I have found so far is the radian or radian pro. I am bad at this so I need your input! Also looking at the eflight airliner. Not sure how much that will end up costing or how much wing I have to work with though
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:12 AM
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kyleservicetech
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Originally Posted by theapplepi3.14 View Post
I will want to control the plane using an arduino so the system does not need a transmitter or reciever.
Something to be aware of here. Currently the FAA has taken issue with models that have strayed into the area where full scale airplane are flying. This can be a serious issue, and if some full scale pilot ever hits one of our models that has strayed into the airliners path, our hobby is going to be permanently changed. And it won't be good for any of us.
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Old 04-20-2015, 06:23 AM
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"so the system does not need a transmitter or reciever.".........

UAV without a transmitter or receiver.......what exactly do you have in mind to control the craft, telepathy......?

The last I heard, "arduino" systems require the ability to transmit and receive a control systems signal (which is technically, a radio communication system, be it Wi-Fi or other wide/short-band (wave) transmitted communication signal)..........
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Old 04-20-2015, 12:11 PM
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I made a mistake with that comment. I thought I would use Xbee, but it turns out it would be easier to just use the normal transmitter and receiver but link the receiver through the Arduino.

I think you misunderstand me. The way I stated it made it sound like I wanted to make a UAV. That is not what I am testing. I actually just want to do nothing of the sort! I will be just experimenting with active control. Also, I don't have the need or the money to use a large scale RC plane. I said it needs to lift 0.5lbs because I want it to be able to lift my 0.1lbs of electronics with ease.

Sorry about the confusion.
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Old 04-21-2015, 09:54 PM
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Right now I'm looking at the Radian Pro, and the HobbyZone Habu 2. Which one bounces up and down vertically in wind more? Which one do you suggest (if any)? Any other planes I should be looking at?

Thanks!
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Old 04-21-2015, 10:45 PM
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Check this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=14&v=jM1ns11VWS8
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:19 PM
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The larger and heavier the airplane the less it will be affected by mild wind gusts.


If you want a very stable platform get the 50cc size "Low Wing Big Stick" kit by AMR or something similar. 8ft wingspan and about 22 lb when ready to fly...
(Or the 12 ft span Giant Telemaster)
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by theapplepi3.14 View Post
Right now I'm looking at the Radian Pro, and the HobbyZone Habu 2. Which one bounces up and down vertically in wind more? Which one do you suggest (if any)? Any other planes I should be looking at?

Thanks!
Uhm? The Habu and the Radian Pro are kind of polar opposites. The Habu is fast and has a fairly high wing load. The Radian Pro is floaty and not really known for its speed (although sailplanes can be wicked fast). It would help to know a little bit more about what you're trying to do.

That being said, I know people who use the Radian Pro as a platform for fun FPV experiments, so that would probably be my personal choice for an experimentation platform.

If you live in the United States, please refrain from attempting to build planes engaging in autonomous flight or flight beyond the line of sight! The AMA/FAA rules are pretty strict about the plane remaining under direct control of a pilot on the ground. Quite frankly, we don't need more bad press.
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Old 04-22-2015, 12:15 AM
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If by "active control" you mean fly-by-wire, it's kind of already been done. Check out e.g. the Demon Cortex or the Eagletree Guardian. Depending on the mode, they can be set up to pretty much fly the plane for you. That's quite honestly the level of autonomous control I'd be comfortable with. Going beyond that, you'll probably be operating beyond the limits of what's legal. If you're interesting in coding, there are a bunch of opensource flight controller projects you may want to look at.
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:13 AM
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I am not interested in an autonomous system. Think of it as an input filter to optimize the plane's performance. I will fly it by remote at all times. It will be just tweaking my inputs slightly. Those adjustments will not affect the plane's trajectory.

Funny enough I actually want to have a plane that bounces around a lot. I need it to carry my systems so the UMX Habu is not an option unless it can carry it's own weight in payload. I don't want a plane that is uncontrollable in winds, I just want one that will bounce around at around .2hz-10hz in moderate or strong winds.

I was looking at the Radian Pro because it is big and capable of carrying a largeish payload. I was looking at the Habu 2 because it is capable of carrying sufficient payload, and it s on the other end of the speed spectrum. Both planes have lift that is almost completely independent of throttle (the accelerated air does not go over the wing (the radian pro has only a little bit of this)) which is something I need.

I was hoping that you guys would know what end of the speed spectrum gets bumping around at .2hz-10hz.
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:25 AM
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Requirements Rewritten:

1) <$400 (cheaper is better here)
2) Can carry 0.5lbs (Probably will be carrying only 0.1lbs but I want wiggle room)
3) All ducted fans are fine. If it is a prop plane the prop must not blow air over a significant amount of the wing (pusher aircraft are okay too)
4) On a windy day the plane bounces up and down with a frequency of around .2hz-10hz (depending on the specific gust)
5) Not a Kit or ARF (I'm not ready yet)
6)Would be cool if it looked like an airliner

Note: It cannot be a delta wing. I already have one and have determined it will not work.
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Old 04-22-2015, 01:44 AM
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Adrunio is a brand name of open source micro controller. You would have to program it to fly a plane.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:03 AM
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You want the Radian. The Habu is a high speed plane and is a lot less forgiving. If you experiment, you want a plane that doesn't immediately become a lawn dart the millisecond something goes a little bit wrong.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NJSwede View Post
You want the Radian. The Habu is a high speed plane and is a lot less forgiving. If you experiment, you want a plane that doesn't immediately become a lawn dart the millisecond something goes a little bit wrong.
Thanks. I will probably get this plane unless anyone else can think of a better one for doing the job.
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Old 04-22-2015, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
Adrunio is a brand name of open source micro controller. You would have to program it to fly a plane.
I understand your concern but I am not new to Arduino. I actually have this system working in a wind tunnel right now, I just need to complete the long and difficult process of applying the system to the real world. I have thought through every part of the process except which plane to use the system with. Thanks for your concern though.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:27 PM
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Yes, I can think of a better plane. Unfortunately, it would take some easy building. The company has detailed construction videos that you would be very challenged to mess up. Their Storm Chaser, however, would really do your job well and would be very much worth the bother to build.

http://www.crashtesthobby.com/storm-chaser-68.html
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins View Post
Yes, I can think of a better plane. Unfortunately, it would take some easy building. The company has detailed construction videos that you would be very challenged to mess up. Their Storm Chaser, however, would really do your job well and would be very much worth the bother to build.

http://www.crashtesthobby.com/storm-chaser-68.html
Do you know what the final price would come to? Also, does the Radian Pro have a dihedral?
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:43 AM
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It's a shame they stopped offering the Mountain Models Magpie. If you E-mail them real nicely, they may be able to help you out.


http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1571

http://www.mountainmodels.com/index.php?cPath=50_96
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:22 AM
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theapplepi3.14
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I just found out the radian pro has a slight polyhedral. Do you know how much it is and how much it affects the stability? To be sure I am looking for a plane WITHOUT dihedral if possible. I like to support my LHS. I think that means only great planes and Horizon Hobby.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I am not taking suggestions
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:16 AM
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Dihedral/polyhedral are for stability. No other reason to not make the wing flat.

With dihedral, in a bank, the low wing will produce more lift than the high wing. This will tend to make the aircraft level itself.

similarly a slightly forward CG (vs center of lift) tends to pull the nose down. Then trimming the tailplanes to lift the nose will have the aircraft seek to fly at one airspeed. Faster and the nose goes up, the plane slows as it climbs. Slower and the nose drops and the aircraft will gain speed. Thus after you trim out your aircraft it will generally be able to have altitude controlled by throttle.

Rudder trim is adjusted to compensate for throttle setting. so you can make most aircraft turn with throttle also. How much depends on how well the thrust line was adjusted. 0 offset would mean more rudder trim is needed for normal cruise thus the plane will turn more with changes in throttle. However that engine angle is only perfect at one power setting with one specific prop.

***********

Wing sweep will sort of act like dihedral for rudder response effect. As you apply the rudder the wing to the outside of the turn will effectively have its wing at lower sweep which makes it slightly more efficient for lift thus the plane will tend to roll in the direction of the commanded turn.

*********

for no dihedral or sweep you are pretty well looking at something like an Ugly Stick.

Note that there are some Ugly Stick clones with dihedral and some with a flat wing. You have to look at what is available.

Also if the wing is high you will have a slight dihedral effect with a flat wing due to the fuselage weight being below the wing. A low wing airplane with no dihedral tends to be unstable.

Finally, the wingtip shape can give all sorts of effects. Adding end plates that just look like an enlarged wing rib will make the whole wing act somewhat as if it had more wingspan. Any shape chosen will do SOMETHING...
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:54 PM
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I guess you are right in the sense that any shape does something. Is the restoring force produced by a dihedral a known function? If so what is that function?
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:10 PM
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variable with other design factors... ANY change you make will have several effects... often including unexpected ones.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by theapplepi3.14 View Post
Is the restoring force produced by a dihedral a known function? If so what is that function?
Yes, of course 'dihedral effect' is a very well known function. Dihedral makes the plane laterally stable, so that the wings tend to 'self-level'. A plane without dihedral effect will tend if uncorrected to fall into an ever steeper spiral dive. This is called spiral divergence.

Dihedral is also necessary (or some other dihedral effect inducing feature) if you want to have a plane to turn properly using rudder only. You will notice that planes without ailerons that have only rudder to turn always have lots of dihedral... this is no coincidence!


Of course you can have too much, too much dihedral causes a phenomenon called 'Dutch roll'.


I'd suggest that you need to be thoroughly familiar with all modes of static and dynamic flight stability before embarking on advanced projects such as supersonic planes and whatever project you have in mind here. Trying to design planes without knowing the basics of aerodynamics is actually perfectly possible 'IF' you simply design your plane well within tried and tested parameters... But if doing anything 'out of the box' then you need to know your stuff.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:18 PM
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i imagined the restoring force would be the difference between the lift moments of the wings as measured from their lift center point which would be a trig function of their dihedral and current bank angle.
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:43 PM
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Dutch roll is induced by a combination of factors and I have seen it in aircraft with no dihedral at all...

Generally an interaction of the prop-wash and the fuselage will initiate it.

You can "force" most planes into the oscillation by finding a combination of climb angle and power level where the tail starts wagging.
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