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Top Flite SE5a power suggestions?

Old 09-14-2013, 07:24 AM
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Tarasdad
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Default Top Flite SE5a power suggestions?

I have recently acquired a Top Flite SE5a kit. It is designed for .45-.60 glow power but I would prefer to go electric. The finished weight of the airframe should be around 5 to 5-1/2 pounds. As I have only flown glow power in the past I am seeking advice on an electric power setup.

What I am looking for is something that will provide scale flight with a 13"-15" prop. Not too fast but with sufficient power for basic aerobatics - Immelman, Split-S, the basic WWI flight maneuvers. I have very basic knowledge of electric flight systems so I'll need advice on motor, ESC, battery, prop and whatever else I may need.

Thanks in advance,

Tarasdad
aka Barry
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:35 AM
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Hi Barry and Welcome to Wattflyers, here is a Nice, Good Quality Power system with a ESC that wont break the bank.

GH GH3520-6 Motor Stats
Wire Winds / Turns: 12
Li-Po Battery : 4 / 7 cells
RPM per volt : 650
Max efficiency : 87%
Max efficiency current :
18 - 40 A
No Load Current / 10V : 1.6A
Max Current : 50A / 60 sec
Dimension : 42x47
Shaft : 5mm
Max Watts:
600W (4S) - 700W (5S)
Continuous Watts : 800W
Weight : 298g
Recommended Model Weight : 8lbs
Recommended Propeller without gearbox: 13 x 8 or 14 x 7 APC Thin Electric



http://www.graysonhobby.com/catalog/...esc-p-667.html

here is a 5000mah 6 cell lipo 20C, this is a 100AMP lipo, 5 amps X 20C = 100 amps, this lipo should give you some good flight time and about 800 watts.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

Here is a nice 5 cell 5000mah lipo that should give you about 700 Watts. its also a 100 Amp Lipo.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

use a UBEC of at least 5 amps,

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...for_Lipo_.html

I would use the 13.8 prop with the 6 cell lipo and the 14.7 prop with the 5 cell lipo, check your amp and watts with a wattmeter.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:36 AM
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UBEC

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...highlight=ubec

a Wattmeter is a Must have to protect your Power system

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...arch=wattmeter
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:18 AM
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Default mounting brushless motors

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39483
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:37 AM
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wood props

http://www.zingerpropeller.com/

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ller_14x6.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ller_13x7.html
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:41 AM
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http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/show...pound+airplane

The simplest approach I have seen to figuring power systems in electrics is
input watts per pound of "all up" airplane weight. The following guidelines
were developed before brushless motors were common but it seems to hold
pretty well so we will use it regardless of what kind of motor is being
used.

50 watts per pound = Casual/scale flying

75 watts per pound = Sport flying and sport aerobatics

100 watts per pound = aggressive aerobatics and perhaps mild 3D

150 watts per pound = all out performance.

Remember that Watts = Volts X Amps. This is a power measurement.
In case you were wondering, 746 watts equals 1 horsepower.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:11 PM
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I'm looking at the Xoar WWI props but will consider others if need be. It will be a while before I need one anyway. This kit was partially built but the build quality is quite bad, with bad glue joints (up to 1/4" gaps bridged with epoxy), very rough sanding and seams filled with what looks like bathtub caulk. I'm using the plan, parts sheets and built frame to pull patterns and make new parts for a totally new build. Just seems the sensible way to go since repairing the existing build would require total disassembly and rebuilding with replacement parts anyway.

I'll know more about power system needs as the build gets closer to completion. A lot will depend on how light I can keep things without sacrificing strength. I'll be incorporating carbon fiber in certain areas to help with that. I plan to use polyspan to cover the model then paint. That will probably be the single most unpredictable area where final weight is concerned - I sometimes tend to be a bit heavy handed with paint due to lack of patience!
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Old 09-14-2013, 09:29 PM
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kyleservicetech
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Originally Posted by Tarasdad View Post
I have recently acquired a Top Flite SE5a kit. It is designed for .45-.60 glow power but I would prefer to go electric. The finished weight of the airframe should be around 5 to 5-1/2 pounds. As I have only flown glow power in the past I am seeking advice on an electric power setup.

What I am looking for is something that will provide scale flight with a 13"-15" prop. Not too fast but with sufficient power for basic aerobatics - Immelman, Split-S, the basic WWI flight maneuvers. I have very basic knowledge of electric flight systems so I'll need advice on motor, ESC, battery, prop and whatever else I may need.

Thanks in advance,

Tarasdad
aka Barry
This would be a "Medium Size" electric model airplane. You are looking at a slow flying model that won't need a lot of horsepower or watt power to fly it.

Take a look at these threads:
Thread on 70 size glow engine conversion to electric
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45222

Hacker 6S2P A123 powered Models
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44686

Hangar 9 Kantana Model
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68844

Hanger 9 Twist 40 Model
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70548

AEAJR's Site on Electric Power
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18521
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Old 09-15-2013, 03:14 AM
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Started crunching a few numbers and nearly fainted! I didn't realize it was going to be so expensive to go electric. The worst part is the darned batteries! This is definitely something I'm going to have to think about. I'm retired/disabled on SSDI so hobby funds are in short supply.
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:18 PM
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Downloaded MotoCalc and ran some sims. Looks like the E-Flite Power 32 with a 13x8 prop would provide all the performance I need. The price for this setup is much more reasonable as it can use the batteries I already have for my Apprentice 15e and Minimoa. I can get an equivalent motor/ESC for around $100, much more in line with what I can afford - one of the "joys" of being disabled and living on SSDI.
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Old 09-17-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarasdad View Post
Started crunching a few numbers and nearly fainted! I didn't realize it was going to be so expensive to go electric. The worst part is the darned batteries! This is definitely something I'm going to have to think about. I'm retired/disabled on SSDI so hobby funds are in short supply.
bear in mind the fuel & all the other related stuff for a nitro engine. batteries last quite a while with proper care & you don't have to wipe the plane off after every flight
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by zoltron55 View Post
bear in mind the fuel & all the other related stuff for a nitro engine. batteries last quite a while with proper care & you don't have to wipe the plane off after every flight
Yup
No vibration issues, no fuel soaked model airplanes, and so on. I've got a model that is 10 years old, on its third electric power system with over 1000 flights. The present power system is running at 1200 watts.

What finally went is the monokote wing covering. That stuff got extremely fragile, where just dropping a nickel on it, would go right through.

Since there were no fuel issues, recovering the model was a real easy project.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:26 AM
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I feel a bit better after doing a bit more searching. There are motor/ESC options that are more budget friendly, albeit from somewhat less desirable sources. I can get a full setup for around $100+/-, which is far closer to what my budget will bear. While I'd love to go with components from Hacker, AXI and Castle they are simply not affordable at this time.

Oily planes are what I'm familiar with. When I started in RC glow was king. Gas motors were rare and usually were converted weed whacker or blower motors, not aircraft specific like we have today. Jets were glow powered ducted fans, not turbines or EDF. Electric power systems were available but in the form of can motors using NiCad packs for power. The vast majority of pilots flew with glow engines and learned how to deal with the residue. Heck, just yesterday I got a good dose of oily exhaust while testing a Saito 91 I'm mounting in one of my planes - came in from the garage wafting the distinctive fragrance of burned castor oil!

Last edited by Tarasdad; 09-18-2013 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tarasdad View Post
I feel a bit better after doing a bit more searching. There are motor/ESC options that are more budget friendly, albeit from somewhat less desirable sources. I can get a full setup for around $100+/-, which is far closer to what my budget will bear. While I'd love to go with components from Hacker, AXI and Castle they are simply not affordable at this time.

Oily planes are what I'm familiar with. When I started in RC glow was king. Gas motors were rare and usually were converted weed whacker or blower motors, not aircraft specific like we have today. Jets were glow powered ducted fans, not turbines or EDF. Electric power systems were available but in the form of can motors using NiCad packs for power. The vast majority of pilots flew with glow engines and learned how to deal with the residue. Heck, just yesterday I got a good dose of oily exhaust while testing a Saito 91 I'm mounting in one of my planes - came in from the garage wafting the distinctive fragrance of burned castor oil!
Thats not to bad I converted a MECOA 40 to Diesel, Talk about stink, No one would get near me and My car smelled of burnt diesel for about a month LOL, I sure do Love E Power, No More cans of Windex and paper towels to wipe off the plane with

The Turnigy plush and sentry are some of the Best ESC for the money, its all that I use, and never ever had a problem with them, you buy them at Hobby King USA Warehouse,

The Eflite motors are a very good motor, you cant go wrong with them, they are a little underated so you can push them a little,
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:39 AM
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HK is where I found the best prices, motor and ESC for $75 to $95 depending on which I choose - and if I'm patient enough to wait for their offer popup to appear! They also seem to have the best LiPo prices. I'm still working with MotoCalc and trying to understand all the info it puts out to determine what motor/ESC/battery combo is best for what I want from the SE5a. It is a WWI biplane fighter after all, not a 3D aerobatics plane.

I've also determined that this plane is about the largest I'll be able to convert to electric power, simply due to the cost of motors and batteries. Fortunately I already have larger planes covered as far as power. Glow power, that is. I have a fair collection of "slimers" on hand: Fox .19 BBRC; Fox .25; Fox .50 BBRC; Saito FA-80; two Saito FA-91; and a Super Tigre G3250. I'm thinking of converting the ST to gas, take it from burning 20 ounces of $30/gal. glow fuel in 10 minutes to sipping 12 ounces of $4/gal. gas in 20 minutes. I'd still have to deal with oil residue but for a savings in fuel costs of $25/gal. I can deal with it!
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:59 AM
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The turnigy, rhino and Zippy Lipo batteries are a very good lipo, i have all of them I am Retired too For a little Extra Income, I make custom Gasket kits for the vintage McCoy 19, 29, 35 and 40 size motors and sell them on EBay, I also Rebuild McCoy Vintage engines too, I am a female fleet maintenance tech. retired, so I have to stretch my dollars too. my Father got me started in CL at about the age of 12, and that was so much fun, I never left Model aviation I am a Bit of a TomBoy Too I always hung around the boys at school because they were into fun stuff like CL planes and Go Karts I have been involved in Model aviation for 47 years. Take care and have fun, Chellie


http://www.ebay.com/itm/McCOY-35-RH-...item20d7da034e
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:20 AM
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BTW what radio are you using, The reason i ask, is because if your on 72 Mhz, a lot of 72 Mhz receivers dont like E Power, I Use JR Radios and when i tried to use my JR Receivers, they Glitched like crazy, I Have found out that the Best 72 Mhz receivers out there are the BERG receivers and Hitec Receivers, I Like the Berg receivers the best, They are made by Castle Creation and have ceramic filtering, never a problem with my Berg Receivers on 72 Mhz,
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Old 09-18-2013, 09:30 AM
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I'm using a Hitec Optic 6 2.4 GHz system. Great radio, love it! I do have my two 72mHz systems from when I first got into RC, a Futaba Conquest 6-ch AM and a World Engines 7-ch FM (missing the receiver, darn it). Every so often I feel the temptation to get those two back up and running but then I get better...
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tarasdad View Post
I'm using a Hitec Optic 6 2.4 GHz system. Great radio, love it! I do have my two 72mHz systems from when I first got into RC, a Futaba Conquest 6-ch AM and a World Engines 7-ch FM (missing the receiver, darn it). Every so often I feel the temptation to get those two back up and running but then I get better...
I am a night Owl I am back, If your world Engines has a gold sticker that it was checked for Narrow band, you can still use it here is a nice BERG receiver that will work great with it only use Berg Crystals with a berg receiver, they are matched. use a little piece of scoth tape to help hold the crystal in place so it does not vibrate out, just a little cheap insurance

http://www.thefind.com/crafts/browse...annel-receiver

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/cse/cse...FYw1QgodJwkAGA

i like the Berg 4L receiver too for my park Fliers

http://www.gravesrc.com/CSEMS4L_BERG..._p/csems4l.htm

Last edited by CHELLIE; 09-18-2013 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tarasdad View Post
HK is where I found the best prices, motor and ESC for $75 to $95 depending on which I choose - and if I'm patient enough to wait for their offer popup to appear! They also seem to have the best LiPo prices. I'm still working with MotoCalc and trying to understand all the info it puts out to determine what motor/ESC/battery combo is best for what I want from the SE5a. It is a WWI biplane fighter after all, not a 3D aerobatics plane.
:
Yup
Motocalc has a lot of information available for digesting. What I've been looking at on the results is the predicted rate of climb, the models stalling speed, and the prop blast in MPH, the watts/volts/amps input, and the motocalc "Opinion" on how the model will fly.

All of the graphs and printouts are very useful, but the motocalc program has taken all of that information, and summarized it in the opinions feature. My experience, that "Opinions" feature is fairly close to the real world, assuming the mfg specs for the motor are accurate.

Now, you can easily put in a prop series from say an 8-6 to an 12-12, and motocalc will generate a whole series of results as 8-6, 8-8, 8-10 all the way up to 12-6, 12-8, 12-10, 12-12. And, generate opinions rate of climb, watts, amps, volts for all of them. You can just scroll down the displayed list of results, find one that is close to the watts/amps your motor can handle, and click on it. You will find that what appears to be a minor change in prop diameter and/or prop pitch can have a major effect on the motor watts, and how the model will fly.

You can also do the same with the number of cells in your battery. Be prepared for a surprise on a motor rated for 6 cells, and run the battery cell count from 3 cells to 8 cells, using the same prop. The results will show why it is nearly mandatory to have access to one of those wattmeters.

If you should find the motor specs are way off on the real world, (something quite possible on some of those "Low cost" motors), just change the motor KV number in motocalc, and save the motor as XXY Motor Real Test. Juggle the KV number until it matches your results. Now, you can run the variety of props on your motor through motocalc, and get an indication on how the various props will work. This is not as accurate if ALL of the motor specs are correct, not just the KV rating, but it will be close enough for most requirements.

A lot of the low cost motors do not specify the motors winding resistance. This is a critical piece of information to know for motocalc, and for an indication on how well that motor is made. The cheap motors don't fill up the motors winding space with copper wire, leaving a lot of useless air in the winding area. The $$$$ quality motors fill this winding area with copper wire, and in the process gain a bit in the motors efficiency and power rating.

If you'd like to measure the motor winding resistance, it can be done with a LiPo battery, a 12 Volt lamp rated at about an ampere, and a pair of inexpensive digital voltmeters.

Take a look:Measuring Brushless Motor Resistance
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50740

Digital Multimeters, How to use them
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52821
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:52 PM
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Hobby King have the Turnigy G60 Brushless 500kv ... at $52 ... I seriously considered this for my big bipe till I changed mind and fitted a 60 glow.

I was given a big Cessna with a 4250 650kv Brushless that was replaced by a 600kv unit ... similar to the Turnigy SK3 500kv 4250 ... but I would go for :

NTM Prop Drive 4248 650kv at $30...

Recc'd 5S pack and reviews show it to draw about 75A on a 13x8 prop.

Nigel
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Old 10-12-2013, 10:06 PM
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Still mulling things over on this one. Modifying the structure for e-power is going to be a challenge. There's no firewall to mount to, just a phenolic plate to mount an IC engine to. I'd have to create a mount that would not only be solid but also allow cooling airflow around the motor, ESC and batteries. Fortunately the way the formers are designed there's no issue with air getting out since there's a continuous hole from the radiators on the nose to the cockpit. I'd just have to figure out how to channel it where it needs to go for cooling using baffles.

Getting the battery in and out is another story. There is no easy way to create a battery hatch on this model. The upper cowling is a piece of sheet aluminum that is formed around the nose and screwed on with 6 screws. The lower aluminum cowl piece simply covers the bottom of the nose to provide shaped louvers. There's not enough room for a battery under it. That leaves trying to install and remove the battery through the cockpit opening, which can be done but would be less than ideal - there's no way my hands will fit into that opening!

All this is still moot conjecture at this point as I am still a long way from even starting the build. I still need to create parts templates in CAD, maybe even recreate the model in SolidWorks to check how the parts fit. That's going to take me weeks if not months of work. I also still need to start gathering the necessary wood, wire and other parts, something else that is going to be an extended process due to our tight budget. Once I do get the materials it will take me a while to create all the parts since I'll be cutting everything out by hand. Fortunately there aren't too many complex shapes, mostly the ribs and a few fuselage top formers. This will also be my first experience using silk-and-dope covering techniques, although neither silk nor dope will actually be used - one is too expensive and the other is too stinky! Right now I'm looking at Polyspan attached with Stix-It then lightly heat shrunk. Light coats of acrylic paint would follow.

I want to get this one built, it will just take time. Once it's done I have a few other WWI aircraft I want to build, namely the Fokker E.III, Albatros D.III and D.Va, Nieuport 28 C1, SPAD 13 and Airco DH2.
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:04 AM
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My SE5 - I scratchbuilt has a hatch in the fuselage side ...

You can see it here with the pull-tab ...



The front is held in place by a fixed tab and rear by sprung hatch latch.

Here's during building ...



I appreciate that mine has ample space and no formers to work round like a conventional build - but may help solve your problem. The beauty of this - the battery sits near the CoG ... allowing me to run a 1300 or a 2200 pack without CoG troubles.

Nigel
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