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Flying With No Control Surfaces

Old 08-20-2009, 08:39 PM
  #1  
Octavius
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Default Flying With No Control Surfaces

Yes I did just say that. Any kind of wing, tail, stab, but no control surfaces at all. Control by thrust vectoring only. I know at best this will be the same problem as a jetski. No throttle = no control. But is it even possible? Thoughts?

Note: I don't necessarily mean like a jet pusher. It could be a conventional plane or any configuration.

Why? Just because it popped into my head and is a sort of nutball idea I'd like to explore. Not looking for anything great or an advantage. Just sustained flight at some minimal level. No hovering/vtol, but normal forward flight.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:00 PM
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gfdengine204
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Well, don't Air Hogs planes use this very concept?

Oh, I just re-read this, I don't mean it to sound snotty, just sayin......
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:05 PM
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firemanbill
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That is how the Air Hogs do it. Two motors, speed differential for left right and both motors throttle up to gain altitude basicall.

No moving control surfaces at all.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:22 PM
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Octavius
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Ah. That is interesting. Not what I was thinking. I would have been bumbed if it was my idea. haha

I was thinking conventional twin and the motors rotate up and down a bit and are mixed. In theory that would give pitch and roll.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:27 PM
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firemanbill
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I see what you are getting at, kind of the Air Hog concept with thrust vectoring. I'd say it could work, having the motors rotate in opposite diections would feasilbly give the roll capability...



... or send you piralling horribly into th ground in a big cloud of dust...

I'd like to see it tried. (preferably without the crashing part)
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:00 PM
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Octavius
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I usually make very expendable prototypes so no worries. I'll see what I can come up with tonight.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:34 PM
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Cool, Will be looking forward to seeing some of your creations.
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:08 AM
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gfdengine204
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If you could make a motor mount that could pivot in 4 directions (side to side and up to down) that would be cool!

Imagine the possibilities if you did it with a twin?

My limited knowledge tells me a pusher configuration might be the best idea for such a setup.
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Old 08-21-2009, 04:47 AM
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I was thinking the same thing. But considering how the mind likes to fool us it might be that we're just used to thinking of thrust vectoring in pusher configuration. Going down to my man-cave now.
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Old 08-21-2009, 08:56 AM
  #10  
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Default Vector-X

For lack of a better name I'm calling it Vector-X. I'm starting to think this is a bad idea. How am I going to land? I'm going to either add trim tabs or heat-bend in some trim tabs. I think it will have to glide hands-off.

Didn't have enough time to finish but came up with a pretty solid controls for the motors. The motors will be attached via hi-tech fasteners... tie straps.

I was a little misleading when I said it would be conventional. Conventional in that it has two tractor motors on the main wings.
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Old 08-22-2009, 06:51 AM
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...


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Old 08-22-2009, 07:09 AM
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SUBSCRIBED!




Simply Amazing. Literally, on both counts.
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Old 08-24-2009, 04:31 AM
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1st flight resulted in a crash after about 2-3 seconds. Pitched up slightly and rolled to the left. Full down/right did nothing. For about half second I thought it stopped rolling but the pitching continued and since it was inverted it just nosed in. I'm guessing a plane like this would have to be trimmed perfectly in the first place, and I can't imagine those tiny brushed motors with 3x3 props cause a torque roll.

I might take a step back and put ailerons and elevator with no thrust vectoring to see what it takes to trim it for a nice flat glide.

Trim surfaces you see are fixed and an attempt to simulate washout. Tiny bit of up trim in the rear.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:07 PM
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2nd crash today. I give up... for now. Completely new plane with fixed motors and conventional control surfaces and it did almost the exact same thing. Barrow rolled to the left with little response from full right stick.

I/we know forward swept wings have to be super stiff. I really beefed up the reinforcement but I wonder if foam is just not suitable for this type of wing. Or maybe I should stop screwing around and put real ailerons instead of mixing the elevators for more authority.

I'm going back to my Guppy design which is working out nicely. I'll come back to this later.
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:22 PM
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A slightly different approach to flying without control surfaces would be to use weight shift. It's worked for hang gliders for quite some time. I suspect you'd need fairly hefty servos, though.
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Old 08-29-2009, 09:05 PM
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This could make money
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:54 PM
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I would try it again, but with a proven and more stable airframe. counter rotating props would prob help too.
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Old 12-31-2009, 07:23 PM
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where is your CG on that plane, my gut tells me the CG should be at or in front of the "crotch" of the forward swept wings. Also did you have counter rotating propellers? and rudder mixed into the motors via V-tail mixer?

really, since the wing is being pulled forward by the forward tips, i don't think you will have the same aerodynamic problems as you would if they were pushed into the wind. What you technicly have is two halves of rearswept wings with a body inbetween.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:41 PM
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Bill G
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Originally Posted by firemanbill View Post
I see what you are getting at, kind of the Air Hog concept with thrust vectoring. I'd say it could work, having the motors rotate in opposite diections would feasilbly give the roll capability...



... or send you piralling horribly into th ground in a big cloud of dust...

I'd like to see it tried. (preferably without the crashing part)
Or into a very tall evergreen, with the highly effective control system.
A guy did that at the park, while we just happened to be there flying our planes. Every now and then, I'd stop by to see if it came down. Low and behold, a year later the entire tree came down due to rot/old age. I'm now the proud owner of 2 working Air Hogs motors, and some small pieces of black foam.
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Old 01-03-2010, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Octavius View Post
...



With your Building/Eng. skills Octavius, you need to check out these folks

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52823

http://verticopter.net/newsletter/Q409.htm
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Old 02-16-2010, 04:15 AM
  #21  
cyclops2
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Move the the engines in to normal distances. Right now you have them in the most overcorrecting position possible.

Take a standard proven twin engine plane & put your pivoting engines on it. It WILL do fine. Get the COG right first. Then go for it.

Piece of cake.

Rich
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:53 PM
  #22  
Octavius
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What fun would that be? Seriously, you're right about that.

One thing I will do before working on this again is set it up with counter rotating props/motors. This one torque-rolled right away. I wasn't expecting it to have that much power for those little brushed motors but I was wrong.
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Old 02-18-2010, 04:04 AM
  #23  
cyclops2
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Default Maybe ?

I think the cause of the rapid uncontrolled moves is reall having the engines on the OUTER MOST wing points. It gives them MASSIVE LEVERAGE to yank the plane around. Move them in side, Get it vectoring. THEN slowly move them outboard. Till it gets Squirrely again.

Rich
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:38 PM
  #24  
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Back in the Zagi days, I mounted motors on the ailerons. Did some mean loops and rolls, but that's cheating.
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:32 AM
  #25  
cyclops2
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Default Octavius !!!

Look on the web for the" Flying Flapjack ". It is almost what you want.

Make 2 motors tilt up & down & also tilt opposite each other for rolls.
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