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3 cell Lipo's in 9.6 v Transmitters

Old 02-20-2018, 05:44 PM
  #1  
Wildflyer
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Default 3 cell Lipo's in 9.6 v Transmitters

on Feb 10th my friend and I went flying. I wanted to get in some practice simply shooting landings as I have a habit of trying to land in the rough on the opposite side of the field. Get out my Sig Kadet LT-25 trainer.

First flight with my trusty JR 9303 radio that I bought from a fellow Wattflyer member, that I have become good friends with. I hope to see him in April.

Kind of a rough landing on first flight, I swear I did not put that much down elevator to the plane, but it hit at about 30 degree angle. I thought I screwed up. MAYBE not.

Got another plane, pushed the top left button & turned on the Tx to select a different plane, but came up with a strange set of stuff on screen. All kinds of strange characters, symbols and stuff. Turned it off and back on in normal mode, and it was the wrong screen. The more times I cycled the power (not fast) the worse it got until I simply have a blue screen. and a big paper weight. Makes me think the sudden down was some kind of glitch, because I just put a little pressure on the stick, not stuffed it half way down.

Knowing a bit of electronics as I hold a FCC general class lic. I figure that since JR put a voltage regulator in the circuit, they are operating the boards at something below 9.6v from the nicad pack they put in.

I had a Lipo transmitter pack in there, after I talked to the engineers at Horizon Hobby when they were the JR headquarters, about the use of a Lipo. They said it would work okay. It did for several years.

I believe voltage regs fail in on of 2 ways, either they open or they short. I think mine shorted out and sent full Lipo voltage to the circuits designed for around 8 volts.

I will NEVER again use a Lipo in a Tx made for nicads. A NiMh or a Life that puts out 9.9 is fine, but not a fully charged Lipo at 12,6v. I think it gave my voltage reg a heart attack.

Think about this, don't crash your planes. The other batteries have the same capacity.

I got lucky the next day though, I scored a Spektrum DX8G2 with an AR8000 Rx in the factory box with all accessories For $160 + 14.10 shipping. It is in perfect shape and only had 3-5 hours use indoors. Even the owner of my LHS is a little jealous.
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Old 02-20-2018, 06:43 PM
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I have an old JR XP9303 as well, and have used lipos in it a few times. I have had two lipo packs from HK made specifically for transmitters, both of which died when I left my TX on accidentally (oh how I wish this TX had an alarm!). I've also used an 8-pack of Sanyo Eneloop AA cells.

Right now I have a standard 3S 2200 lipo in it after killing my last TX pack. I typically charge it to only 12v, and recharge it when it gets to 11.1v. So far I've not had any issues with it.
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Old 02-20-2018, 10:08 PM
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Sorry to hear of your TXs demise WF. Hopefully it can be salvaged OK.

Now, as for landing... When I learned to fly RC back in the early 70s I had your problem in that I always landed some distance from myself. I taught myself to aim at myself when landing. This bought the plane in a lot closer. Not much chance of hitting yourself but it worked for me and my landings improved 90%. Try it.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:55 AM
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I wish you luck Pat, my system worked for years before it went out. The more I thought about what I saw on the screens, I believe it was a cascading failure going through the board. I talked to JR America service and he agreed with that idea.
I have another 9303 with a Liion bat at 9.9v and I have 3 8103'3 with Nimh batteries.

I still recommend something that is not much over 9.6v
JRoA said it would cost about $75.00 for a new main board.
----------------------------------------

Yes Panther I do need to aim more at my self, I'm sure that would help a lot. Getting better at landings is why I went flying that day, with my best friend and copilot beside me.

In 1985 I flew every weekend and some evenings after work on an abandoned strip for small planes a few miles from my house. There was a piece about 8' wide and 100' long that was usable after we cleared broken chunks of concrete off the edges.

But my thumbs worked a lot better back then and my flying showed it.
I just want to get comfortable again and relax. I am supposed to be retired but too many people know I was a master carpenter, and they want things done.
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Old 02-22-2018, 07:05 PM
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I use (2) JR10X's & switched to LiFe batteries when the NiMh orig. battery cassettes finally died. I simply removed the small charging boards, wired in a new connector to fit the LiFe plugs. I even use the LiFe's in my old JR Computer8 Tx that has been brought back to life so I can use it on several gliders. I remember the note from JR that the LiPo's fully charged will fry the Tx internals & to keep Tx voltage below 11.5v. The LiFe's provide a great amount of operating time & fit the Tx's quite nicely.

Denny
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Old 02-22-2018, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by yorkiepap View Post
I use (2) JR10X's & switched to LiFe batteries when the NiMh orig. battery cassettes finally died. I simply removed the small charging boards, wired in a new connector to fit the LiFe plugs. I even use the LiFe's in my old JR Computer8 Tx that has been brought back to life so I can use it on several gliders. I remember the note from JR that the LiPo's fully charged will fry the Tx internals & to keep Tx voltage below 11.5v. The LiFe's provide a great amount of operating time & fit the Tx's quite nicely.

Denny
LFP aka LiFeP04 should work nicely as the range would be 10.8 to 7.5 volts although you should not dare go below 9.0 volts with 3S LFP. Only downside to LFP (other than low energy density) is their extremely flat charge/discharge curve making it very difficult to determine State of Charge from voltage. Where as NCO aka LiPo has a defined slope and in 3S configuration is 9.0 to 12.6 volts.
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Old 02-23-2018, 02:15 AM
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One time I read in JR information, that you should not use a Lipo.
Then in the same article several months later they did not say to stay away from Lipo's.

While I was having some problems with a HH product, I asked the engineer about Lipo's and he said go ahead. After what I saw my 9303 doing I will not use a Lipo in a nicad transmitter.
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Old 02-23-2018, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
While I was having some problems with a HH product, I asked the engineer about Lipo's and he said go ahead. After what I saw my 9303 doing I will not use a Lipo in a nicad transmitter.
Gizmos do not care or know what battery type is used. All that matters is if the voltage range is compatible. Great example is if you use a Spectrum Radio TX. My DX6 and DX7 can use either 4S NiMH/Nicd (4.2 volt) or LiFe 2S (7.4 volt).

I am not familiar with JR Voltage regulator circuit, but it appears to be a very narrow range. If manufactures something like a very common TI LM318 5 volt regulator, input range is 6 to 40 volts.

Having said that any LiPo is completely compatible with any NiCd/NiMH in 3S increments. For every 3S NiCd/NiMH requires a 1S LiPo So if you had say a 9S NiMH would require a 3S LiPo. 3S NiMH = 3.6 volts vs 1S LiPo 3.7. Both would be charged to 4.2 volts, and discharged to 3 volts. Your gizmo would not know the difference.
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Old 02-23-2018, 05:51 PM
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Okay do what you want.

Show me transmitter designed for 9 Ni/Cd
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Old 02-23-2018, 07:50 PM
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Usually its better to over voltage a dc power regulator then undervoltage it.

If I had a 6-30v regulator, I'd want to run it on at least 24 volts. Even though it may work at 6 volts, the wattage (amps x volts = watts) will be the same, but the amprage will be much higher.

Amprage is what blows out traces and burns stuff up.
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Old 02-23-2018, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
Okay do what you want.

Show me transmitter designed for 9 Ni/Cd
Huh? I do not want anything. All I am saying is any gizmo does not know or care what battery type is used. All that matters is the voltage to be compatible.

If your TX radio is made for 9.6 volt NiCd/NiMH battery means it has an operating range of 8 to 12.0 volts. Either 8S NiCd/NiMH or 3S LiFeP04 could be used.

NiMH fully charged = 1.5 volts x 8 cells = 12 volts, Fully discharged = 1.0 volts x 8 cells = 8 volts

LiFeP04
aka LFP fully charged = 3.6 volts x 3 cells = 10.8 volts, Fully discharged = 2.7 volts x 3 cells = 8.1 volts. It fits.

LiPo
would not work fully charged 4.2 volts x 3 cells = 12.6 volts would be too high of a voltages you stated. That added heat over time burnt the voltage regulator out.

3S LifeP04 (LFP) would work just fine with an added benefit of extra capacity for both volume and weight. If given the same volume would be twice the capacity at half the weight of NiMH. Given the fact LiFeP04 cost roughly the same, twice the capacity, and longer cycle life makes it a good option. Example Spectrum Radios can use either a 2000 mah 4S (4.8 volt) NiMH, or a 4000 mah 2S (7.2 volt) LCO. In the options menu you tel the radio which battery you are using to set the volt meter correctly.

Take what you like, scrap the rest.

Last edited by dereckbc; 02-23-2018 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hayofstacks View Post
Usually its better to over voltage a dc power regulator then undervoltage it.

If I had a 6-30v regulator, I'd want to run it on at least 24 volts. Even though it may work at 6 volts, the wattage (amps x volts = watts) will be the same, but the amprage will be much higher.
Not quite how it works. If you were to use say an analog regulator like the LM318 is a series voltage regulator. What that means is Input Current = Output Current. So if your gizmo needs 5 volts @ 1 Amp = 5 watts to make it run. So let's say you used a 35 volt input. You still have 1 amp out of the battery. 35 volts x 1 amp = 35 watts. Your device still uses the same 5 volts x 1 amp = 5 watts. That means the LM 318 voltage regulator has to burn off that extra 30 watts as waste heat. A terrible waste of energy. A LM-318 is just a couple of dollars so to use one with a 5-volt input you would ideally want to use a battery when fully discharge is say 6 volts like a 2S LiFeP04 with an operating range of 6 to 7.2 volts. That way you are only burning off 1 to 2.2 watts as waste heat. That puts you in the range of 69 to 83% efficiency as waste heat.

On the other hand if you used say a Switch Mode DC-DC Converter then you have some huge advantages mainly in efficiency or 95 to 98%. With a DC to DC converter Output Power = Input Power + Converter Efficiency or roughly 98%. So take that same Gizmo that uses 5 volts @ 1 Amp = 5 watts. At 98% efficiency would mean input power = 5 watts / .98 = 5.1 watts. Almost no power loss like an AC transformer, except DC. But here is the kicker they could be designed to operate at any input voltage say 40 volts. That would mean you go into the converter at 40 volts @ 0.125 amps (5.1 watts). When you take a higher voltage and step it down to a lower voltage/higher current is called a BUCK CONVERTER. When you take a lower voltage and raise voltage/lower current is called a BOOST CONVERTER.

Unfortunately The Radio Manufactures do not use Buck Converters because of the added cost. Instead they use a Series Regulator which has limits, in the case of the JR transmitter severe limits. Go over 12 volts, and you over heat the Series Voltage Regulator and that lets the magic smoke out.

The other area of trouble would be if the Radio had a built-in battery charger. If it is made for NiMH, you could still use LiFeP04 as long as you removed the battery and charged it externally. You just gotta know what is going on inside.

Take what you like, scrap the rest.
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Old 02-24-2018, 06:37 AM
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That makes sense.

I've mainly only used switch mode voltage regulators, mainly in cars and dc-dc converters for computers and back up power supplys.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:47 AM
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I always smile when I see NiXX quoted as 1.5V full charge which in fact is not true ...

According to my pal who was Senior Tech at Mallory ... full charge NiXX is 1.35V - with shortly after start of load a steady 1.2V+ ... 1.5V is only a momentary amount straight of a charger.

The mistake that many make is to assume that a NiXX is not sufficient to replace directly a Dry Cell ... but in fact is generally better because of its lower voltage drop under load and steady voltage till near discharged.

Just commenting ....

On the subject of 9 NiMh cell radios ......... it was not uncommon many years ago to see Car racers with an extra cell fixed to back of their 2ch 27Mhz radios !! The idea was the mistaken belief that the extra cell gave a boost to the RF !! ACOMS user were worst for this.

Nigel
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I always smile when I see NiXX quoted as 1.5V full charge which in fact is not true ...

According to my pal who was Senior Tech at Mallory ... full charge NiXX is 1.35V - with shortly after start of load a steady 1.2V+ ... 1.5V is only a momentary amount straight of a charger.
It is in fact true Nigel. Try charging your nickel batteries at 1.35 volts and see what happens. It takes 1.55 to 1.65 volts to charge a nickel cell. You completely missed the point of the topic. To find a battery type that will work requires the full range to be compatible. For 8S Nickel is 8 to 12 volts and does not matter if it is NiCd, NiMH, or NiFe.

Lithium is a bit unique with respect to operating voltages being quite wide range. For Nominal Voltage ranges from 2.4 volts for Lithium Titanate, 3.2-3.3 for Lithium Iron Phosphate, and 3.6 to 3.8 for the Cobalt and Manganese family.. The LiPo's we use for our plane drive system is a Cobalt family on steroids using a gelled electrolyte to get the Internal Resistance down for high C-Rates, and it makes them very unstable and dangerous.

As a tidbit of useful information one can determine the relative energy density of a battery source by its Nominal Voltage. Example Nickel based batteries have extremely poor energy density at 1.2 volts and Energy Density ranges around 40 to 60 wh/Kg. Some of the Lithium Cobalt chemistries at 3.6 to 3.8 volts goes as high as 250 wh/Kg and thus why are the default choice of EV's.

Lithium Iron Phosphate, 3.2 vpc is not so great at 80 to 100 wh/KG but is compatible with a few other chemistries like Nickel and Lead Acid as direct placements.

Anyway Nigel same can be said for every batterry. A 3S LiPo (11.1 volts nominal) when fully charged is 12.6 volts but only there for a few moments. A 3S Lipo is not compatible with 8S Nickel but is compatible with 3S LiFeP04 aka LFP. Not only does the charge discharge ranges are compatible, but nominal is exactly the same at 9.6 volts which was the point I was trying to make. Both NiMH and LFP have very Flat curves.
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Old 02-24-2018, 08:55 PM
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Derek - think you missed my point .... a NIMh is not a 1.5V cell as an Alkaline or Manganese dry cell.

Of course it requires a 1.6V at least to charge it to full - but the rested FULL charge of a NiMh is not 1.5V..... it soon drops away after removal from charger. The manufacturers state 1.35V as genuine steady full.

As to "A 3S Lipo is not compatible with 8S Nickel but is compatible with 3S LiFeP04 aka LFP. Not only does the charge discharge ranges are compatible, but nominal is exactly the same at 9.6 volts"

..... sorry but I cannot agree there.

3S : > LiPo nominal is (3.7V per cell) 11.1V ... LiFePo is (3.2V per cell) 9.6V ...... full charge is LiPo 12.60V, LiFePo 10.8V

The claim that 12.6V is only there for a few moments implies a claim that it is as fast lost as with the 1.5V of a NiMh ... no way Hose ... 12.6V is a definite charged level and I agree it drops back a couple points in obscure decimal in first moments - but not to extent NiMh does !

They better be as that - or my setups are completely f***** !!

Nigel
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Old 02-25-2018, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
As to "A 3S Lipo is not compatible with 8S Nickel but is compatible with 3S LiFeP04 aka LFP. Not only does the charge discharge ranges are compatible, but nominal is exactly the same at 9.6 volts"

..... sorry but I cannot agree there.
Well all I can say is your math needs work.

9.6 = 9.6 in any school.

  • LiFePo4 nominal is 3.2 volts all day long and at 3S = 9.6 Volts
  • NiXX = 1.2 volts nominal all day long and at 8S = 9.6 volts.
  • Does not get anymore equal than that.I never said NiXX nominal was 1.5 vpc. You are the only one who said that.

Give it up Nigel you cannot win this debate. 9.6 = 9.6 no matter what you say, who you know, or where you went to school.

Now to use your own words against you. All batteries voltages relax as the surface charge relaxes. So you say 1.35 vpc for NiXX at 8S = 10.8 volts. and do not deny it. LiFeP04 is charged to 3.6 volts x 3S = 10.8 volts. Put them both under load and they quickly go FLAT at nominal voltage of 9.6 volts.

Again 10.8 = 10.8 volts all day long. Nominal is exactly the same all day long. There are only two differences between the two. How you charge them, and cut-off voltages which does not matter operationally. An 8S NiXX LVC = 8 volts, and 3S LFP = 7.5 volts and using 8 volts is just an extra margin of safety to prevent over discharge.

Nigel I am a professional Engineer of 40 years and have worked with batteries all 40 years. I do not do smal;l little consumer stuff, I do the big stuff by the bbig boys like C&D, Enersys, Deka, Saft, and Panasonic. I also sat on IEEE Battery Standards committee, we write the standards and practices for the world. . I know WTF I am talking about. So butt out. You cannot win a battery debate against me.

FWIW LFP is also a drop in replacement for Lead Acid battery in 6-volt increments. They both can use the exact same battery charger.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:40 AM
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Derek - what you post NOW I agree with ...

But to be honest - your english sucks in the original statement. Your statement when read as you wrote indicates the LiPo = LifePo which is not true. Your text mixes the three in bad order.

"A 3S Lipo is not compatible with 8S Nickel but is compatible with 3S LiFeP04 aka LFP. Not only does the charge discharge ranges are compatible, but nominal is exactly the same at 9.6 volts"

As to 1.5V .... you should go back through your posts as my statement that 1.5V is not true for NiMh is due to your stating it ... Post 11.

I do not need your resume nor do you need mine. I am sure you know exactly what you meant when you wrote it - but what is in your mind and the written words are different.

In fact I was sure you meant to write NiMh is comparable to LiFePo ... but you didn't. If you had written :

"An 8S Nickel is not compatible with 3S LiPo, but is compatible with 3S LiFeP04 aka LFP. Not only does the charge discharge ranges are compatible, but nominal is exactly the same at 9.6 volts"

There would be no argument now at all .... simple sentence construction and which way round you put the subjects.

Derek please step back ... my Maths capability is well above average - it has to be or I could not do the job I do. My English capability is well above average based on Academic qualifications and achievement. And funny enough I had to study AC-DC Theory ... and Electrical / Electronics to obtain my Licences as a Ships Officer - we had to service radars / radios / all sorts of gear because a service agent is hard to find in middle of Indian Ocean ...

Lets have a beer on it and keep WF as it should be.

Nigel
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Old 02-25-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Lets have a beer on it and keep WF as it should be.
As usual you started it, and when you get your butt kicked say; "let's be friends" .
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Old 02-25-2018, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dereckbc View Post
As usual you started it, and when you get your butt kicked say; "let's be friends" .
Derek ... I have explained why we differ.

Sorry you still cannot accept your error in grammar ... that's not my problem.

Butt kicked !! That's very funny .... Its actually yours square right in the centre !
The fact I have shown that IF you had written it correctly - this disagreement would not have arisen seems to elude you. I even say that myself !! AND show you the grammatical correction that you could have written.
My purpose in highlighting YOUR error - is that many newcomers to our hobby take old lags like you and me at their word. We therefore have to be careful that what we write is as correct as we can be.
Your statements were wrong - because you used bad sentence construction.

The actual result - if we leave aside your obvious dented pride - is your later better explanation caused by my questioning your posts and finally showing correct comparison of battery types - instead of that poorly worded mish-mash before.

Accept the fact and move on.

My offer of a beer seems to be your excuse to now slag me of ...

Bye Derek ... have a nice day.

Nigel
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:45 PM
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Going for the Gold......:

Texas = 10pnts

Displaced Brit (Latvia) 9pnts.......Slight point reduction due to grammar error...

"......excuse to now slag me of ....."........should have been "OFF".......lol

Note....:

The entertainment value of this thread has now exceeded it's technical contribution......notice the viewer count, started out at about 10 views, now since the miss-mash over 200. Just like every other "rockem-sockem" thread these guys post......and a few of mine as well.......LOL
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:48 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Derek ... I have explained why we differ.
Answer me this Mr. English major. Who the heck is Derek? For 5 years you have been talking to someone no one has ever heard of. Certainly not me. Anyone can see how I spell my name except you. .

FWIW "a" vs "an" is real simple. Use "a" before words that start with a consonant sound and "an" before words that start with a vowel sound. 3S is a consonant sound. I suggest you stop because I wil not let you have the last word. Figure it out Nigel. On this forum you are more times than not the source of trouble then cry foul. OK I have always known my writen word is not perfect, so what? Only you did not understand. But when it comes to electrical. I have forgotten more than you will ever know.
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Old 02-25-2018, 07:59 PM
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:00 PM
  #24  
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Alright gents, let's settle down please.
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:01 PM
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Somebody please apologize to DAVE.......the "two bulls in the china closet" have over-run this thread.......
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