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Lipo High Balance Voltage?

Old 09-23-2017, 05:00 AM
  #1  
maca67
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Lipo High Balance Voltage?


Hi I have a swallow charger with a new 4S lipo Nanotec 4000mah 25c, as yet i havent flown with it only running a new plane on the ground to make sure everything is ok. The first charge form recieving the battery was fine, the 2nd charge ( from 43% ) the alarm sounds on the charger and on a watt meter stating high balance voltage. The charger shows a higher range than the HK watt meter. As HK have all ready replaced the last battery which was last week i`m wondering if its the charger or are their batteries not worth the cheap price? I dont have this problem charging my other 2S and 3s batteries.??
Any hits / tips before i start a fire, I just want to have a fly.
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Old 09-23-2017, 07:19 AM
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I'm not sure what your charger means by "Lipo High Balance Voltage"

As far as HK batteries go, I am very happy with them, I must have 30-40
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:10 AM
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If you give us the cell voltages after charge when its says the High Voltage ... as well as what settings you are using on your charger --- we may be able to help.

Nigel
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:29 AM
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The last charge the battery started at 43% , I tried without the balance lead attached and the battery charged fine ( no alarms) the swallow charger finished at 16.797v, on the HK -10 meter the high voltage alarm went of soon as contected showing 16.857v with 3x 4.20 & 1x 4.26v cells. Is this aworry? The HK meter took 2 hrs so balance.

I like the swallow charger as i only have to enter the mah capacity, easy done to match the battery and volts you choose 7.4, 11.?, 14.4 v and so on, idoit proof ,Press entr and the charger checks this is correct and charges.
Beeps when finished.
I have the battery on balance charge again from 50% (without the HK Balance ext leads), cleaned all the contacts pressed in all the leads, & will see.
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Old 09-23-2017, 02:29 PM
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My guess is that the cell 4 is too high or too different than the others. The diag should be to balance all at 3.9 and then test at the upper and lower limit. This will tell you that cell 4 is either smaller or simply out of balance with it's siblings.

It might not be cell #4 , but you get the point, right?
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Old 09-23-2017, 03:04 PM
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Why charge without the balance lead?
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Old 09-23-2017, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by birdDog View Post
Why charge without the balance lead?
I'm with you. I never charge without the balance lead. I had a buddy that did that by changing the charging mode to lithium ion which doesn't require the balance lead (DO NOT DO THIS!) anyway, he almost set his house on fire and the packs were never balanced. I have since shown him the way. I don't charge my lipos on any other setting than Lipo - "Balance Charge" because I want all my cells to always be balanced. I think that's the only prudent and safe thing to do. These batteries are no joke when they go up. NiCads were once considered dangerous. and they didn't explode. not like these lipos.
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Old 09-23-2017, 06:14 PM
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The balance lead is the primary reason we purchase these sophisticated chargers. The old days of balancing with a blinky are far behind us.
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Old 09-24-2017, 03:34 AM
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Hi nidly,
Thanks for the inut, I`m not sure of what you mean by; -"The diag should be to balance all at 3.9 and then test at the upper and lower limit. This will tell you that cell 4 is either smaller or simply out of balance with it's siblings."
The Swallow doesnt explain what it means when the "Balancer Voltage is too High" - it states if voltage per cell is too high, this message appears.
I`ve charged again a few times with the balance lead connected to the charger but no Hobby King ext lead in between.
The readings between the swallow charger, Hk s meter and a multi meter all differ, not sure if this is a concern, but the battery isnt getting hot (unlike the last new one)
Swallow shows 16.868v - forget how to read the cell v
HK meter shows 16.926 alarm sounds high voltage cells read 4.23, 4.22, 4.22 4.25- is the alarm sounding from adifference of 0.03v? and that the overall voltage is a bit high but could be just the meter?
The multi meter shows 16.73v- with the first cell/ lead next to black 4.18, 8.35, 12.53, 16.73v .

Regarless im going to fly tomorrow, was abit concerned after the last new battery all arms sounded on everything and was warm after charging.
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Old 09-24-2017, 05:32 AM
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"Swallow shows 16.868v - forget how to read the cell v
HK meter shows 16.926 alarm sounds high voltage cells read 4.23, 4.22, 4.22 4.25- is the alarm sounding from adifference of 0.03v? and that the overall voltage is a bit high but could be just the meter?"
No - in fact its telling you that the whole battery is OVER voltage ... No cell should be higher than 4.20V ... and total 16.80V

"The multi meter shows 16.73v- with the first cell/ lead next to black 4.18, 8.35, 12.53, 16.73v . "
That means you have 4.18, 4.17, 4.18, 4.20 per cells ... which is not so bad ..

When you meter a balance lead move BOTH meter leads along the pins not just one ... as the cells are the adjacent pins ... ie :

Cell 1 = pins 1 + 2
Cell 2 = pins 2 + 3
Cell 3 = pins 3 + 4
Cell 4 = pins 4 + 5

Total pack is pins 1 + 5

Nigel
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:35 AM
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maca67
As solentlife points out your individual cell voltages appear to be ok but I would be a bit concerned by the charger.
Over voltage warnings are there because over charging a LiPo is a guaranteed way to cause it to ignite!
Whilst your charger does not appear to over charge if you ignore the warning how will you know if a LiPo ever really does get over charged?
Does it give the same warning when charging other LiPos?
It could be that particulare LiPo that is at fault.
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Old 09-24-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by maca67 View Post
... the high voltage alarm went of soon as contected showing 16.857v with 3x 4.20 & 1x 4.26v cells. Is this aworry? ...
Yes. 4.26volt is too high, 4.25volt is absolute limit. Standard meter balancing safe voltage(s) should be set at 4.20volt.

Some LiPo knowledge
Lithium Polymer Battery Technology: An Introduction
by Frank Siegert, translated by John Julian and formatted by Ken Myers
"an extremely important background article for understanding LiPo batteries."

Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
... When you meter a balance lead move BOTH meter leads along the pins not just one ... as the cells are the adjacent pins ...
'Multiple choice' instruction diagram for the measuring leads
(and looots of e-flight info, other tools)
www.scriptasylum.com
→ RC calculations
→ Electrical
→ LiPo pack wiring

And look for this drawing


Last edited by ron_van_sommeren; 09-26-2017 at 01:45 AM.
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ron_van_sommeren View Post
Yes. 4.26volt is too high, 4.25volt is absolute limit. Standard meter balancing safe voltage(s) should be set at 4.20volt.

Lithium Polymer Battery Technology: An Introduction
by Frank Siegert, translated by John Julian and formatted by Ken Myers
"an extremely important background article for understanding LiPo batteries."

'Multiple choice' instruction diagram for the measuring leads
(and looots of e-flight info, other tools)
www.scriptasylum.com
→ RC calculations
→ Electrical
→ LiPo pack wiring
→ Balancer wiring

Ron .... your point is ??

Forgive me for saying but but your post does not answer any question. It might be more helpful if instead of quoting sources - to actually put substance to a post ?

Your image of a 6S battery balance lead shows nothing of value ...

Nigel
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:56 PM
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You have a meter and a charger that show the voltages as OK. You have a HK meter that sounds alarms. Short of having your equipment at a laboratory, because we all know this stuff is not laboratory grade, I would guess that the HK meter is off.

Charge WITH THE BALANCE LEAD, check voltages with the volt meter for the time being and read the instructions on your charger. You will most likely be fine.

Always keep a close eye on new battery voltages for the first few cycles.
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by birdDog View Post
You have a meter and a charger that show the voltages as OK. You have a HK meter that sounds alarms. Short of having your equipment at a laboratory, because we all know this stuff is not laboratory grade, I would guess that the HK meter is off.

Charge WITH THE BALANCE LEAD, check voltages with the volt meter for the time being and read the instructions on your charger. You will most likely be fine.

Always keep a close eye on new battery voltages for the first few cycles.
Agreed, I have several of those $2.50 pieces of garbage. They're great for preventing you from going below a specific cell voltage but they're off.. even from each other and even in the same unit. I have one that tells me each of my batteries has a first cell at 4.25v when charged and the rest are 4.18. So like bird dog says, that little cheapo meter is probably off, because my charger shows each cell as it charges and they all showed 4.2 when they cam off, and four of my other identical meters says something different for the same sell.

There's the little bugger right here and it's really not good for much else than a flight alarm to let you know you've dropped below your specified alarm voltage:
This battery was in storage charge and still showed out of balance cells despite how the charger protests.
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Ron .... your point is ??

Forgive me for saying but but your post does not answer any question. It might be more helpful if instead of quoting sources - to actually put substance to a post ?

Your image of a 6S battery balance lead shows nothing of value ...

Nigel
One of the great things about Ron's posts is he usually adds useful links for the O.P. to read and better educate themselves about the situation at hand. Once they are educated they can better understand and diagnose problems on their own. They're free to accept and implement the personal suggestions of other posters but Ron helps supplement those suggestions with published expert information.

Joe
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Old 09-24-2017, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by maca67 View Post
Hi nidly,
Thanks for the inut, I`m not sure of what you mean by; -"The diag should be to balance all at 3.9 and then test at the upper and lower limit. This will tell you that cell 4 is either smaller or simply out of balance with it's siblings."
The Swallow doesnt explain what it means when the "Balancer Voltage is too High" - it states if voltage per cell is too high, this message appears.
I`ve charged again a few times with the balance lead connected to the charger but no Hobby King ext lead in between.
The readings between the swallow charger, Hk s meter and a multi meter all differ, not sure if this is a concern, but the battery isnt getting hot (unlike the last new one)
Swallow shows 16.868v - forget how to read the cell v
HK meter shows 16.926 alarm sounds high voltage cells read 4.23, 4.22, 4.22 4.25- is the alarm sounding from adifference of 0.03v? and that the overall voltage is a bit high but could be just the meter?
The multi meter shows 16.73v- with the first cell/ lead next to black 4.18, 8.35, 12.53, 16.73v .

Regarless im going to fly tomorrow, was abit concerned after the last new battery all arms sounded on everything and was warm after charging.
The series cells need to be at a low voltage point (discharged state , resting and room temp) volt readings logged.

Then charged in series to a high voltage point (without any balance adjustments) , volt readings logged.

With this info capacity imbalance can be determined. If cells are not similar in capacity they will give fits to nearly ANY charger (with balance option enabled) their whole life.

There almost always has to be a distinction between 3 causes.

The most important is capacity difference because it can never be corrected , but can be band-aided with a good balance charger.


The 2nd is probably IR differences which can never be corrected , but can be band-aided with a good balance charger.

The 3rd is simply a state of charge difference which can be easily corrected by equalizing the cell's state of charge. This 3rd problem seems to be the most common yet the most overlooked.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:27 AM
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Alot of info from everyone , which is great , only one way to learn if what I`m doing is right. I was quiet worried after the last new battery sent alarms of on everything and was warm after charging, I didnt think i could be sent a replacement battery that was also a dud, whats the chances.

I will have to recharge the 4S get its reading per cell from the swallow to see if its over charging, and also charge an older and a new 3S to compare.
At this stage the swallow is not having any problems with the 3S, could it be over charging the 4S for any reason or is the reading likely to be wrong, hence the alarms. Might have to buy a new multi meter so i know its reading right.
the Hobby King meter not $2.50 only $27 but i thought it would be half good, a electricians multi meter is about the same price.
I just wanted to know if the charger, meter or battery were faulty, but learnig heaps of info as i go along, some of it goes in other goes over the top. cheers everyone.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:28 AM
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Will have to start another thread, whats agood ( basic , easy to use charger that will do a beginner for a while) charger and watt meter.
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by maca67 View Post
Will have to start another thread, whats agood ( basic , easy to use charger that will do a beginner for a while) charger and watt meter.
The best one I found was around $54 on sale. Look for anything B6AC in the name. They're pretty straightforward. Just push buttons until you get the hang of it. Otherwise there's some decent instructions available. The B6AC firmware is used in almost all the chargers on the block.

I'll do a video on one and post it soon.
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Old 09-25-2017, 05:59 PM
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Potentially, your wattmeter (and other functions) could be off by a small fraction of a volt. I would still use it to check wattage after making any changes to a power system. You can get a simple cell voltage checker for 2 to 6 cells for around $5. Your charger does look a bit dated. If you charge a lot, invest in the best charger you can justify the cost of.

If I were starting out, I would probably grab one of these which can also support parallel charging. http://www.usastore.revolectrix.com/...ersion/GT500_2

Keep in mind you will need to purchase an adapter to plug your specific balance leads, a lead for the mains (or a parallel board) and a DC power supply (or a large battery).

This equipment supports your entire hangar so money invested here is well spent.

Last edited by birdDog; 09-25-2017 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 09-25-2017, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by maca67 View Post
The last charge the battery started at 43%
Part of the problem is there is no such thing as 43%. Any SOC voltage is completely meaningless consumer marketing mumbo jumbo.

I can take any 3S battery you have and make it read 9 volts or 13 volts instantly regardless what SOC it is in.

You want to know the Open Circuit Voltage on a well rested battery.
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Old 09-25-2017, 10:51 PM
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Makes sense to me. I will guess the 43% pack was in the high 3.7's. FMA powerlabs break it down into percentages too. I think around 3.5 is 0% If FMA programs it into a menu, it is a thing.
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Old 09-26-2017, 01:37 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Ron .... your point is ?? ...
One cell voltage is too high at 4.26volt.

The Ampeer link I provided is good LiPo reading material.

... Your image of a 6S battery balance lead shows nothing of value ...
I see how that could be confusing, the drawing being that big and all. It refers to the location of the multiple choice 'instruction tool' for measuring individual cells on that Sriptasylum page. Scriptasylum does not provide direct links to those tools, they are just listed.



'Multiple choice' system wiring diagram tool in LiPo-pack wiring page.

Last edited by ron_van_sommeren; 09-26-2017 at 02:04 AM.
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Old 09-26-2017, 06:14 AM
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My comment Ron was based not to upset but that newcomers want answers direct in the replies. Links to external information are good - but we all know most people want answers 'fed to them' without reading all the other stuff that pads out.

Many people here much better than I do answer in the posts ....

As to the guys battery and cells .... depending on which numbers you read from his info - the possible reasons are different..

My opinion at present is the guy needs to look at his charger and how he reads cells. He needs to feel confident in what he reads on the displays.

Nigel
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