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scalercflyer 07-11-2009 01:41 PM

Don't make me come down there you crazy Texican!:mad::eek::D Marty

7car7 07-13-2009 07:00 PM

Hell's Angels
Finally got to see the movie Hell's Angels.
Some really fun WWI dogfights, and nice footage of some SE5s and Fokker DVII's.
Some glaring in-accuracies, and some editing oversites, but still a fun movie for guys like us.

2 things that stood out were one of the Brits was shown in the cockpit firing on the Germans, and previously they only showed SE5s, but from the cockpit, it was clearly a twin Vickers plane. And the guns were not covered over like a camel or SE5. But early in the movie, they showed Camels. Other thing that was wierd is that a twin seat German bomber, being used by the Brits, was doing a bombing run. Then the Fokkers spotted them (;-)). They were VERY low to the ground. But next seen they show them all VERY high in the air, above clouds. We all know that that 2 seater would have been brought down long before they ever reached the clouds.

However, still fun to watch, another for the WWI collection.

7car7 07-13-2009 07:49 PM

Oh, forgot to mention above - MVR was seen flying a DVII. Is that accurate? I was thinking he never flew one - but perhaps my memory is wrong.

dbcisco 07-13-2009 08:55 PM

Manfred von Richthofen, a great influence on German fighter plane development, looked forward anxiously to the D VII, writing Kogenluft on April 2, 1918:
"When can I expect to receive the [new] Fokker biplanes with the high compression engines? The superiority of British single-seat and reconnaissance aircraft makes it even more perceptibly unpleasant here. Their single-seaters fight by coming over at high altitudes and staying there. We cannot even shoot at them. Speed is the most important factor. We could shoot down five to ten times as many if we were faster. ... Please give me news soon about when we can count on the new machines."
Of course, Richthofen never flew the new machine, as he was killed on April 21st.

degreen60 07-13-2009 09:39 PM

I think I read somewhere that MVR had a DVII and it was being worked on was the reason he flew the DR1 the day he was shot down. I believe he had several planes he could chose to fly. I will look and see if I can find the artical.

dbcisco 07-13-2009 09:48 PM

He is recorded as testing the D.VII prototype and his feedback produced a longer fuselage (at least).

degreen60 07-13-2009 09:53 PM

I found the artical and my memory was wrong, he was waiting on the DVII to be delivered to his squadron. He had flew the prototype in January and liked it so well he delayed re-equipping his J.G.1 with the Pfalz D12, a better plane than the triplane which was available, to wait on the DVII.

WWI Ace 07-13-2009 11:06 PM

Yeah it kills me how the majority of people think MVR only flew a red triplane. I would love to see the new Red Baron movie that was made in Europe!! It is probably a little inaccurate too but at least the planes look better!!! Steve

degreen60 07-14-2009 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by WWI Ace (Post 621216)
Yeah it kills me how the majority of people think MVR only flew a red triplane.

I believe he scored most of his kills in an Albatros. I think the DR1 is only well know cause he got killed in it. The British had already removed thier triplane from front line use.

WWI Ace 07-14-2009 12:26 AM

I like the Sopwith tripe too!! I know of at least one occasion when the two different tripes went up against each other. I bet that was quite a sight!!! And yes most of MVRs kills were in the Albatros planes. Only kill #60 on were scored in the triplane. A little trivia question, "Does anyone know how many kills MVR scored in the Fokker Eindecker?" Steve

WWI Ace 07-14-2009 03:34 AM

Come on guys!! Someone must know the answer to this easy Red Baron question!!!! Did I scare everybody off? Steve

7car7 07-14-2009 06:20 AM

Seem to recall he either did or did not make ace in the Eindecker :roll:So I'll take a WAG and say 5.

TVCasualty 07-14-2009 06:32 AM

Fokker Eindecker?
The Red Barron transferred to the air service from the trenches in 1916... ...After the Fokker Scourge. He did not fly the Eindecker, but that means he fought and earned all his victories against Allied air superiority. Target rich enviornment! :D

dbcisco 07-14-2009 04:30 PM

It is unclear to me if his second uncredited kill on 26 April, 1916 was in an Albatross C.III or Eindecker.

WWI Ace 07-14-2009 11:01 PM

If you answered zero you are correct!!! Where is Marty? I'm sure that he could add more but when MVR started flying scouts he actually had to share a plane with another pilot. Neither one scored because they were too afraid of destroying their only plane!! The other pilot did eventually succeed in destroying the plane during a crash landing. Steve

dbcisco 07-14-2009 11:08 PM

Anyone got details on his 26 April, 1916 kill ?

dbcisco 07-14-2009 11:11 PM

Found this "On April 26, 1916 he was flying a Fokker Eindecker single-seater over Verdun when he managed to score another kill, a French Nieuport, just over Fort Douaumont, but it was not officially credited." source

degreen60 07-15-2009 01:47 AM

Look what I found. Does this answer the questions?

117 Sep 19161100Jasta 2Albatros D.IIF.E.2b (7018)Near Villers Plouich223 Sep 19161100Jasta 2Albatros D.IIMartinsyde G.100 (7481)Bapaumehttp://www.theaerodrome.com/images/cita.gif330 Sep 19161150Jasta 2Albatros D.IIF.E.2b (6973)Near Lagnicourt407 Oct 19160910Jasta 2Albatros D.IIB.E.12 (6618)Near Equancourtu/c10 Oct 19161800Jasta 2Albatros D.IIF.E.2b (4292)Near Arras516 Oct 19160500Jasta 2Albatros D.IIB.E.12 (6580)Near Ypres625 Oct 19160935Jasta 2Albatros D.IIB.E.12 (6629)Near Bapaume703 Nov 19161410Jasta 2Albatros D.IIF.E.2b (7010)NE of Grevillers Wood809 Nov 19161030Jasta 2Albatros D.II (491/16)B.E.2c (2506)Beugny920 Nov 19160940Jasta 2Albatros D.IIB.E.2c (2767)S of Grandcourt1020 Nov 19161615Jasta 2Albatros D.IIF.E.2b (4848)Grandcourt1123 Nov 19161500Jasta 2Albatros D.IID.H.2 (5964)S of Bapaume1211 Dec 19161155Jasta 2Albatros D.IID.H.2 (5986)Near Arras1320 Dec 19161130Jasta 2Albatros D.IID.H.2 (7927)Menchy1420 Dec 19161345Jasta 2Albatros D.IIF.E.2b (A5446)Moreuil1527 Dec 19161625Jasta 2Albatros D.IID.H.2 (5985)S of Arras1604 Jan 19171615Jasta 2Albatros D.IISopwith Pup (N5193)Near Metz en Coûture1723 Jan 19171610Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.8 (6388)SW of Lens1824 Jan 19171215Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.2b (6997)W of Vimy1901 Feb 19171600Jasta 11Albatros D.IIB.E.2d (6742)1 km SW of Thelus2014 Feb 19171200Jasta 11Albatros D.IIB.E.2d (6231)W of Loos2114 Feb 19171645Jasta 11Albatros D.IIB.E.2c (2543)SW of Mazingarbe2204 Mar 19171250Jasta 11Albatros D.IIB.E.2d (5785)1 km N of Loos2304 Mar 19171620Jasta 11Albatros D.IISopwith 1½ Strutter (A1108)Acheville2406 Mar 19171700Jasta 11Albatros D.IIB.E.2e (A2785)Souchez2509 Mar 19171155Jasta 11Albatros D.IIID.H.2 (A2571)Between Roclincourt and Bailleul2611 Mar 19171200Jasta 11Halberstadt D.IIB.E.2d (6232)S of La Folie Wood2717 Mar 19171130Jasta 11Halberstadt D.IIF.E.2b (A5439)Oppy2817 Mar 19171700Jasta 11Halberstadt D.IIB.E.2g (2814)W of Vimy2921 Mar 19171730Jasta 11Halberstadt D.IIB.E.2e (A3154)Hill 123, N of Neuville3024 Mar 19171155Jasta 11Halberstadt D.IISPAD VII (A6706)Givenchy3125 Mar 19170820Jasta 11Halberstadt D.IINieuport 17 (A6689)Tilloy3202 Apr 19170835Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2d (5841)Farbus3302 Apr 19171115Jasta 11Albatros D.IIISopwith 1½ Strutter (A2401)Givenchy3403 Apr 19171615Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.2d (A6382)Between Lens and Lieven3505 Apr 19171115Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIBristol F.2b (A3340)Lewarde, S of Douai3605 Apr 19171130Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIBristol F.2a (A3343)Cuincy3707 Apr 19171745Jasta 11Albatros D.IIINieuport 17 (A6645)Mercatel3808 Apr 19171140Jasta 11Albatros D.IIISopwith 1½ Strutter (A2406)Near Farbus3908 Apr 19171640Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2g (A2815)Vimy4011 Apr 19170925Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2d (2501)Willerval4113 Apr 19170858Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIR.E.8 (A3190)Between Vitry and Brebières4213 Apr 19171245Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.2b (A831)Between Monchy and Feuchy4313 Apr 19171935Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.2b (4997)Noyelles-Godault, near Henin Liétard4414 Apr 19170915Jasta 11Albatros D.IIINieuport 17 (A6796)1 km S of Bois Bernard4516 Apr 19171730Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2e (3156)Between Bailleul and Gavrelle4622 Apr 19171710Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.2b (7020)Near Lagnicourt4723 Apr 19171205Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2f (A3168)Mericourt4828 Apr 19170930Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2e (7221)E of Pelves, SE corner of Square 69984929 Apr 19171205Jasta 11Albatros D.IIISPAD VII (B1573)Near Lecluse5029 Apr 19171655Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIF.E.2d (4898)SW of Inchy, Hill 90, near Pariville5129 Apr 19171925Jasta 11Albatros D.IIIB.E.2e (2738)Near Rouex5229 Apr 19171940Jasta 11Albatros D.IIISopwith Triplane (N5463)Between Billy-Montigny and Sallaumines5318 Jun 19171315JG IAlbatros D.IIIR.E.8 (A4290)Hof Struywe, Square V.425423 Jun 19172130JG IAlbatros D.VSPAD VII (B1530)N of Ypres5524 Jun 19170910JG IAlbatros D.VD.H.4 (A7473)Between Keibergmelen and Lichtensteinlager5625 Jun 19171840JG IAlbatros D.VR.E.8 (A3847)Near Le Bizet5702 Jul 19171020JG IAlbatros D.VR.E.8 (A3538)Deulemont5816 Aug 19170755JG IAlbatros D.VNieuport 23 (A6611)Near Polygon Wood5926 Aug 19170730JG IAlbatros D.VSPAD VII (B3492)Between Poelcapelle and Langemarck6001 Sep 19170750JG IFokker F.IR.E.8 (B782)Near Zonnebeke6103 Sep 19170735JG IFokker F.ISopwith Pup (B1795)S of Bousbecque6223 Nov 19171400JG IAlbatros D.VD.H.5 (A9299)SE corner of Bourlon Wood6330 Nov 19171430JG IAlbatros D.VS.E.5a (B644)Near Moevres6412 Mar 19181110-1115JG IFokker DR.IBristol F.2b (B1251)N of Nauroy, Square 28586513 Mar 19181035JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (B2523)Between Gonnelieu and Banteux, Square 18536618 Mar 19181115JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (B5243)Molain-Vaux-Andigny Road6724 Mar 19181445JG IFokker DR.IS.E.5a (C1054)Combles6825 Mar 19181555JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (C1562)Bapaume-Albert Road6926 Mar 19181645JG IFokker DR.IS.E.5a (B511)S of Contalmaison7026 Mar 19181700JG IFokker DR.IR.E.8 (B742)2 km NE of Albert7127 Mar 19180900JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (C6733)Ancre, 1 km N of Aveluy, N of Albert7227 Mar 19181630JG IFokker DR.IA.W.F.K.8 (B288)2 km W of Foucaucourt7327 Mar 19181635JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Dolphin (C4016)1 km N of Chuignolles, S of Bray-sur-Somme7428 Mar 19181220JG IFokker DR.IA.W.F.K.8 (C8444)Near Mericourt7502 Apr 19181230JG IFokker DR.IR.E.8 (A3868)Hill 104, NE of Moreuil7606 Apr 19181545JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (D6491)NE of Villers-Bretonneux, near E edge of Bois de Hamel7707 Apr 19181130JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (D6550)Near Hangard7807 Apr 19181205JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (D6554)500 m E of Hill 104, N of Villers-Bretonneux7920 Apr 19181840JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (D6439)SW of Bois de Hamel8020 Apr 19181843JG IFokker DR.ISopwith Camel (B7393)NE of Villers-Bretonneux

dbcisco 07-15-2009 01:56 AM

That starts with his Jasta 2 assignment. He had at least 2 kills before that.

dbcisco 07-15-2009 02:47 AM

He got one of the first Fokker tripes and that is why there are "Fokker F" designations in there. F.1 was initial designation of the tripe, and was applied to only the first four aircraft.

scalercflyer 07-15-2009 03:29 AM

MVR's death
Boy DB you are just a source of info! Good job! BTW, my other hobby is researching WWI aviation history especially MVR. I love seeing other Guys as enthused as I am. Steve, Db's info should keep you busy. But in the same spirit, I'll throw a couple of questions to you experts. What specifically killed the Red Baron? And what was the one thing he preached and stressed to his men that he violated on the day of his death? Chew on that one Boys. marty

scalercflyer 07-15-2009 03:30 AM

BTW DB where are you located in PA?

dbcisco 07-15-2009 03:40 AM

I'm in Lansdale.
The question of how MVR died is debatable, how ever the best forensic evidence indicates that it was the Australian anti-aircraft gunners that provided the killing shot. It is possible that even without that shot he was already going down and would not have survived the crash.

scalercflyer 07-15-2009 03:51 AM

Nice guess
Db I work right up the road from you in Colmar! Let's get together some time! BTW your guess was very good but not quite what I was looking for. Perhaps someone else would like to guess? I will give you Guys a clue to the first question... it happens to alot of service men who serve in combat for long periods of time. The second question requires more research. Marty

dbcisco 07-15-2009 04:28 AM

Take your pick:
He flew with in ground fire over enemy lines, was still recovering from his head wound and shouldn't have been flying, probably suffering from shell-shock(WWI term)/battle fatigue(WWII term)/PTSD(1970 on), didn't use altitude that was readily available with the DR.1, and lastly should have got his hands on a D.VII.
All of which are easily explained as errors resulting from the head wound. The head wound being the causa prima. It is unclear whether he had"shell-shock" in the true sense of the term, rather the mental confusion caused by head trauma. Thus his was probably a physiological rather than a psychological disability.

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