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Biplane Murphy 01-20-2010 08:31 AM


Originally Posted by WWI Ace (Post 683772)
That is one cool triplane Ron!!!!! Can't wait to see a flying video!!! Steve


Originally Posted by scalercflyer (Post 683821)
Superb job Ron! :) You did us proud! :D VR would be proud too! ;):D:cool: Marty

+3

79CJ 01-20-2010 01:41 PM


Originally Posted by Ron (Post 683663)
The Dr1 is for all intents and purposes finished as of last night...I will post a couple of snapshots later....Just need to do the designation lettering on the fuse sides, and carve a 29" prop...if anyone's interested in the prop carving adventure, I can post step by step pics as I try it...doesn't look very difficult to me :rolleyes:

I'd personally love to see the process. What wood are you planning on using?

BTW, the plane looks fantastic.

Ryan Flyer 01-20-2010 04:42 PM

I would love to see the prop carving!
Glad you all like the video.
Pat

7car7 01-20-2010 05:18 PM


Originally Posted by Ron (Post 683676)
Here it is in all it's "glory" weight got away from me a little it weighs 15 pounds with batteries in..

Looken ze outen Snoopy :p>


Love the scheme! Really nice job you've done. Can you tell us how you made the wheels/tires? Noticed they're gray, not black. Nice scale touch.

Ron 01-20-2010 06:03 PM

Thanks fellows...I am going to start the prop today....
7car7..the wheels are a plywood disc..9 1/2" in diameter..on the outside, I made a 'China Hat" out of 1/32 plywood. The hat is 1 1/4" in diameter smaller than the wheel. the center hub is 3 pieces 1/4" plywood washers epoxied onto the face of the hub...the back side has one washer glued on...glue all that on first then I painted all this with red paint, except for the outside 7/8" of the rim on both sides since you need to glue the tire here...next I made a jig/fixture to split some 7/8" gray foam rod that I bought at the hardware store... I made a 7/8" wide x 7/8" deep channel out of some scrap ply..about 3 " long...then in the back side of the channel at one end, insert a hard backed razor blade ...let it stick through about 1 inch....then you run the foam rod or hose or whatever through the channel...it splits it absolutely perfectly in half..every time..it worked so good, I found a little plastic box to store it in..this one's a keeper :-) then I used weldbond to glue each tire half onto to the plywwod rim.......the foam is atually not taking any load.... the center has a brass bushing made out of 7/32 tube epoxied into it..it's a clearance fit for 3/16 axle. .. they are sturdy, and light..the pair weigh 12 ounces......Wms bros wheels this size weigh 42 ounces for a pair.

I was looking around for some wood to carve the prop from last night, and noticed that the support leg for my temporary stand was made out of a yellow cedar 2X4 straight grained and clear, so I commandeered it for a prop blank..somewhere in that 2 by 4 is hiding a 28" prop :-) so I'm gonna carve away everything that doesn't look like a prop and see what happens...

7car7 01-21-2010 05:30 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Ron, have you seen this thread about making props?

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541181

This is how I made my laminated prop for my SE5. It was a lot of fun actually, and it is very thin and light.

Ron 01-21-2010 06:37 PM

7car:
Yes I have tinkered with this type of prop on smaller applications, but being that this is about 30" in diameter, and the pitch is so steep, it doesn't look feasible once you make the pattern and stack it. so here's where I started.
I decided that somewhere in that 36" temporary clear yellow cedar bench leg, there must be a prop hiding and since we want a 28" prop, there's no problem getting a 1 1/2 X 3 1/2 X 28" piece out of it.so replaced the leg with something less quality ....it is after all only a bench leg :-) here's how I started.

formula for a helical pitch propellor is P x W /T= C .......P is the required pitch ...W is the width of the prop .....T is the thickness of the prop..... C is the circumference of the prop at the desired pitch...first thing to do is decide prop dimensions..using the formula above
P=14....W= 2.750.....T= 1.250....these are just what looks about right..they are not critical dimensions..you could go wider or more narrow..thicker or thinner..I used 1 1/4" thick because that's what will fit the prop adaptor.... next I dimensioned the "prop blank" made a piece 28"long...2 3/4" wide and 1 1/4 thick...do the math next

So 14 x 2.75= 38.5 38.5/1.250= 30.800 this is the circumference of the "pitch circle" then we divide by 3.1416 which is pi this gives us the diameter at the desired pitch which is 9.8 inches..so we divide 9.8 by 2 to get the pitch radius...which is roughly 4 15/16".
next lay out the center of the blank on the front face...then at 4 15/16" out from there on both sides mark the radius with a square across the blank as if you were going to cut it. so now you have a block with a center line, and two marks at the radius points..... look at the end of the block and draw a diagonal from lower left corner to upper right corner on one end...then do it again on the other end...you have now just drawn the bottom surface of the prop at point marked...this is 14" pitch.
next I drew the hub with a compass...marked the shape I wanted the prop, and started to carve the back side of both blades with a knife/spokeshave...the triangle of material underneath the line that goes from bottom left to top right has to be removed.....that's where I'm at now....more later..possibly some pics if I can get the camera to work.

dbcisco 01-21-2010 06:48 PM


Originally Posted by Ron (Post 684394)
....formula for a helical pitch propellor is P x W /T= C P is the required pitch W is the width of the prop T is the thickness of the prop C is the circumference of the prop at the desired pitch...first thing to do is decide prop dimensions..using the formula above
P=14....W= 2.750.....T= 1.250....these are just what looks about right..they are not critical dimensions..you could go wider or more narrow..thicker or thinner..I used 1 1/4" thick because that's what will fit the prop adaptor.... next I dimensioned the "prop blank" made a piece 28"long...2 3/4" wide and 1 1/4 thick...do the math next

So 14 x 2.75= 38.5 38.5/1.250= 30.800 this is the circumference of the "pitch circle" then we divide by 3.1416 which is pi this gives us the diameter at the desired pitch which is 9.8 inches..so we divide 9.8 by 2 to get the pitch radius...which is roughly 4 15/16".
next lay out the center of the blank on the front face...then at 4 15/16" out from there on both sides mark the radius with a square across the blank as if you were going to cut it. so now you have a block with a center line, and two marks at the radius points.....

WOW! I will never complain about the cost of props ever again.::o

Ryan Flyer 01-21-2010 10:31 PM


Originally Posted by dbcisco (Post 684397)
WOW! I will never complain about the cost of props ever again.::o


Right! That is crazy! :eek: My hat is off to you Ron.
Pat

BradT 01-22-2010 05:03 AM

db and Ryan, I think it takes Ron about as long to describe the math involved, as it actually takes him to measure up and mark the blank, and before you know it, he's got the thing carved! It seems to come naturally to him, as he mis-spent part of his youth as a boat builder, I believe.;-) I had the pleasure of flying his original 30% DR I on several occasions, and his first hand carved yellow cedar prop worked very well on the model. I have a cedar mill fairly close to me, so I picked up a couple of clear 2x4s for Ron back when he decided to do the first prop, so I think that bench leg must be the other piece.:<:

I visited Ron last week, when the model had just been covered, but not yet painted. The pictures really don't do it justice; it's a beautiful plane, and HUGE! I can't wait to see it in the air.

Brad.

Ron 01-22-2010 09:29 AM

Thanks for the kind comments gang.....now if I can just get Brad to drop in to the cedar mill one day, and scrounge me up a couple three more "blanks " we can do some more props..like for a certain D V11 that's gonna be flying again soon :-)..and my EV needs one too.... and so will the next "secret" project...spent three hours today...with numerous timeouts for coffee, smoke, lunch etc....prop is carved totally...pics in the morning with a running commentary. oh..balanced too...and this time no power tools..all by hand..I tried it out already.......it's just the right size to spank the grand kids with :-) works good...hope it works as well as a propellor :-)

79CJ 01-22-2010 01:52 PM

I'm eagerly awaiting pictures of the prop.

Just curious, you said it is cedar, any idea what the real props were made with? Were they cedar as well? I'm sure different countries used a couple of different woods depending on what they had and what they could get.

dbcisco 01-22-2010 01:55 PM

I am humbled by all the master craftsmen on this forum.
I need to learn how to fly my planes with paper bags over them.;-)

Ron 01-22-2010 06:40 PM

8 Attachment(s)
79 CJ... I actually said it's YELLOW cedar ( cypress to some of you) but I think they used whatever was straight grained, and knot free...... material type likely wasn't that important......remember the average life span of a plane wasn't very long :{
So any way in the first picture you can see the bench leg that I was convinced a 28 X 14 prop was hiding inside of. next two pictures you can see the layout that comes from the couple of simple calculations I described earlier...now in the next one, we have rounded up all the necessary tools,a steel rule, a square, a set of dividers, a spoke shave, and some sand paper...time to make some wood chips ;) next is a picture of the stuff that doesn't look like a 28 X 14 prop..then finally I found it..the prop that was hiding in the table leg :D now all I need do is stain it, put it on the model and see if it works as well as a propellor, as it does to club fish :p> the whole process by hand took about 3 hours...if you have a disc sander( angle sander angle grinder) with a flexible sandpaper disc mounted on it this whole thing can be carved likely in about 15 minutes, but I wanted to do it without that luxury just to prove you don't need any special tools to make a prop.. a ruler, a spoke shave or a knife and some sand paper..just as an experiment this morning I carved a 10" prop with a razor knife in about 15 minutes...guess who's not going to be buying many props from now on ? :eek:
db..I usually fly mine with a grbage bag 'inside" them...then..that way I have something to put all the pieces in when I crash

degreen60 01-22-2010 07:44 PM


Originally Posted by Ron (Post 684763)
db..I usually fly mine with a grbage bag 'inside" them...then..that way I have something to put all the pieces in when I crash

Thats why I fly foam planes, they break into larger pieces than balsa planes when I land. I can not tell the differance between my landings and a crash. They say any landing you can walk away from is a good landing, I walk from all my landings so they must be good.

dbcisco 01-22-2010 07:47 PM

Any landing that a mouse in the cockpit would have survived is a good RC landing. Fortunately mice are quite resilient.

Ron 01-22-2010 08:17 PM

any landing you could walk away from or that keeps the plane in one piece is a good one...any landing that leaves the model so that you can actually fly it again (without fixing it) is a perfect one :-)

Ryan Flyer 01-22-2010 09:33 PM

How 'bout any landing you dont need to walk TO is a good landing.????:ws:

degreen60 01-22-2010 10:25 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan Flyer (Post 684822)
How 'bout any landing you dont need to walk TO is a good landing.????:ws:

Does that include the one that hit my wife?

Ryan Flyer 01-23-2010 02:17 PM

If she walked away then thats where you use "any landing you can walk a way from....":D

degreen60 01-23-2010 03:52 PM

She walked but I run.

Ryan Flyer 01-23-2010 04:08 PM

Ok That must be a bad landing if the pilot ran;)

Ron 01-23-2010 10:28 PM

Well today was bench test try out time for the DR1....I programmed the speed control, and installed the prop..hooked up the battery and tied the model to my digital scale so that I could check amps, pull, and RPM.....

the amps was about 40 I think when I aborted the test....I did find out though, that the wing tip skids work :rolleyes: at about half throttle, the model rolled to the port side and the wing tip skid was on the ground..then both wheels came off the ground...didn't have the moxy to check the pull or the RPM...before I killed the throttle, :red: but from the looks of it there 's gonna be lotsa power::o I have never before witnessed a model's wheels coming off the ground while it's tail is tied to a post...SHEESH ! ::o :ws:..first time for everything eh?
Now we're finally ready for test frights :Q

scalercflyer 01-24-2010 05:17 PM

Aviation info site
 
Here you go Boys. Check this out. Marty
http://www.airminded.net/

79CJ 01-26-2010 02:25 AM

Great link! Some cool pictures on there and a lot I have never seen before.

Ryan Flyer 01-26-2010 02:27 PM

Hay everyone, I am really exited this morning, I finished building and taxied my first WW1 airplane! still a few things to do before the maiden but it is mostly complete. I is a Avro 504k That I built for foam using plan from Debreen. Thank you De!
Anyway I think it will fly nicely if I can get the CG righrt so wish me luck on the maiden!
Patrick Ryan

79CJ 01-26-2010 03:01 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan Flyer (Post 686143)
Hay everyone, I am really exited this morning, I finished building and taxied my first WW1 airplane! still a few things to do before the maiden but it is mostly complete. I is a Avro 504k That I built for foam using plan from Debreen. Thank you De!
Anyway I think it will fly nicely if I can get the CG righrt so wish me luck on the maiden!
Patrick Ryan


Congrats! Post up some pics for us to enjoy :)

Ron 01-26-2010 06:14 PM

Patrick good luck on the maiden...how about a picture or two??

degreen60 01-26-2010 07:44 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan Flyer (Post 686143)
Hay everyone, I am really exited this morning, I finished building and taxied my first WW1 airplane! still a few things to do before the maiden but it is mostly complete. I is a Avro 504k That I built for foam using plan from Debreen. Thank you De!
Anyway I think it will fly nicely if I can get the CG righrt so wish me luck on the maiden!
Patrick Ryan

Did you just use the printed plane as an outline to cut the foam or did you attach the printed paper to the foam so you did not have to paint the plane?

Ryan Flyer 01-26-2010 09:02 PM

I painted it because the copy machine I used to enlarge the plans would only do BW. I need to ask K Close to help me with the pictures, I dont know how to do it yet. But it will be soon.
Thanks a lot,
Patrick

degreen60 01-27-2010 01:07 AM


Originally Posted by Ryan Flyer (Post 686241)
I painted it because the copy machine I used to enlarge the plans would only do BW. I need to ask K Close to help me with the pictures, I dont know how to do it yet. But it will be soon.
Thanks a lot,
Patrick

I aways make a BW first on my printer even if I am going to use a color print for the plane. I only have a BW laser so I use it to make sure I have everything correct before I have son print me the color copy. A couple of my planes were made using BW copy then covered with color print. I just made some emblems to go on a plane using my BW printer then colored them using marking pens. You can use BW to get panel lines and such then color with pens and the lines will show through. Are you and Kclose going to have WW1 dog fights? Looking forward to seeing the pictures.

Ryan Flyer 01-27-2010 04:08 AM

So I took the Avro out this evening. I had been windy all day but it was finelly calm so I threw it. I had had a hard time getting the cg right and had to add a lot of clay to the nose. Anyway It flew! It was still tall heavy so it was hard to controle and because I had the add somuch clay to the nose it did not climb well and I thought it might not make it over the trees so I chopped the throttel but this was a mistake and it did not glid and hit the ground at about a 45 degree angel. It was not to badly hurt so I just need to get the cg right and it should fly good.

Thanks for all the help every one,
Patrick

degreen60 01-27-2010 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan Flyer (Post 686413)
So I took the Avro out this evening. I had been windy all day but it was finelly calm so I threw it. I had had a hard time getting the cg right and had to add a lot of clay to the nose. Anyway It flew! It was still tall heavy so it was hard to controle and because I had the add somuch clay to the nose it did not climb well and I thought it might not make it over the trees so I chopped the throttel but this was a mistake and it did not glid and hit the ground at about a 45 degree angel. It was not to badly hurt so I just need to get the cg right and it should fly good.

Thanks for all the help every one,
Patrick

Nice thing about WW1 foam planes they fly slow and bounce when hitting things(including my wife). They break into large pieces and easy to fix. I always try to mount everything as close to the fire wall as possable. I use pull-pull string for control to keep the tail light.

Ryan Flyer 01-27-2010 11:58 PM

The avro did not really brake the wings just came off and the prop broke.
Pull pull would be a good idea but it is harder the build. I made lighter push rods but I still think I am going to have to do more to get the CG right. Anyway it is almost fixed so I will have more updates soon.

Patrick

K CLOSE 01-28-2010 05:43 AM

Pat, you should have called me, I would have tossed her for you ( I'm off today-yea) I'll call tomorrow and see if I can't help with the cg and get your parts order.
Cheers, K
PS. Riley's Camel is comeing along well.
/ hijack over
//slashies:rolleyes:

Ryan Flyer 01-28-2010 06:22 AM

Thanks K! When it is ready to go again I will take you up on that offer! And I really need help with the CG.
Talk to you tomorrow,
Patrick

degreen60 01-28-2010 04:51 PM


Originally Posted by Ryan Flyer (Post 686762)
Thanks K! When it is ready to go again I will take you up on that offer! And I really need help with the CG.
Talk to you tomorrow,
Patrick

I find COG on my scratch builds by the trial and crash method. As a starting point I like 25% back of the leading edge. On multi-wing planes I set a square against the leading edge of the forward wing and parallel with the bottom of the aft wing. Now read the distance from the 90degree angle on the square to the trailing edge of the lower wing and use that as the wing cord. This worked perfect on my tripehound but not on my M1C. My Bristol M1C has the COG about 18% back of the leading edge on the straight part of the wing. The wing on the plane has large rounded tips, almost a 3rd of each wing.

Ryan Flyer 01-28-2010 06:25 PM

I know it should be about 1/3 back but I will need to carve out the back of the fuse to make that work.

dbcisco 01-28-2010 06:37 PM

never mind.

scalercflyer 01-29-2010 09:58 PM

Futaba 7cap/chp computer radio on ch 44 w/many Extras!
 
Boys, I have my Futaba 7CAP/CHP computer radio for sale. It includes an 8 CH RX, charger, switch, flight battery, and manual all in the original box. I need to move this out (I'm funding another WWI project). I will make you a deal you can't refuse! PM me if interested. Marty


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