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-   -   WWI planes (https://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259)

scalercflyer 01-23-2008 12:41 AM

Drill bits
Speaking of drill bits Boys, I'm having a tough time finding good drill bits made in the USA. :( Seems like all of the vendors (Black and Decker, Sears, etc) are going to the cheap crappy ones made in China! :mad: I refuse to buy them! :mad: Any suggestions? Martin

robinairerc 01-23-2008 12:53 AM

Again, find a good hardware store, and check the prices. The good ones wil be almost double the cheapies! Also, maybe you can find a good industrial supply company in town. You can also try, on line, MSC Industrial Supply, from whom I get a lot of stuff, including drills, taps, lathe and milling cutters, and they carry 3 or 4 different price ranges, and IDENTIFY imports and American made. You can get a free, 2-volume catalog, but wear your girdle when you pick it up!!! email mscdirect.com or 1-800-645-7270. Lee

Cookie 01-23-2008 01:14 AM

Drilling the center section out of the nylon bolt is a great idea. I never thought of that. It would hold the wing on during flight but during a stress condition, it would shear off. Great idea.

Hedlro 01-23-2008 03:00 PM

New to everything!!
Hi Everyone,

I am very new (2 months) to RC Flight having bought a HobbyZone Piper Cub and taught myself. I liked the look of the Scale(ish) Piper Cub and love Bi-Planes so the next logical step...... build a scale WW1 Bi from scratch!!!:roll:.

Chickened out and bought a DB Sport and Scale Kit of the Sopwith Pup (the electric version obviously). 50% through the build and just about to start on the wings. Boy what a learning curve but loving every second of it, even when I glue both hands to the fuselage with CA (mental note: Pin together, don't hold together!):red:

Just hope it flies properly after all this effort.


Cookie 01-23-2008 05:10 PM

Rob, Welcome to the forum. So you're building a scale Sopwith Pup huh? Take your time and do a really good job on it. I'm sure that some of the others here will respond with advice. Just one bit of advice from me. Get in plenty of practice flying before attempting to fly any old World War 1 type biplane. Not trying to scare you away from biplanes, but they do fly differently from a single high wing, such as a Cub or Cessna 150. Difficult for me to describe in writing but they tend to "baloon" when taking off or climbing. Kind of like some unseen force reaches out and grabs it and suddenly lifts it into the air. You have to be prepared for it to do that so that you don't panic. Maybe some of the others here can give you a more descriptive example of how they fly. But don't give up. Once you get the hang of it, there's nothing more pleasing than a slow flying World War 1 biplane flying along at a nice slow scale speed.

scalercflyer 01-23-2008 05:49 PM

Amen to that Cookie! And WELCOME to the best thread on Wattflyer Rob! Just like Cookie said advice is just for the asking. Have fun, take your time and enjoy the build. There are many of us here that love building too. We will be anxiously awaiting the pics of the build. All the Best, Martin

degreen60 01-23-2008 07:14 PM

Welcome Rob. Now you know your going to have to find a way to paint something red on that Pup so you can drive Martin up the wall. Hey Martin did you notice I painted cowl red on my Morane Saulnier L? Did that just for you. HAHA

scalercflyer 01-23-2008 07:59 PM

You're killing me! Martin

Hedlro 01-23-2008 08:46 PM

Hi Guys thanks for the welcome.

Nice flash of red down both sides could do it!!!!

Will post some pics of the build as is in a bit. One question, probably not the right place but, I am about to mount the brushless outrunner (Tornado Thumper 3536) to the firewall. Taking into account the down and right thrust, do i mount it so the propeller is central in the cowl (ie move the mount up and left on the firewall) or do I mount it so that the central line (the line of the shaft) of the motor starts from the central point of the firewall? I don't want to mess with the thrust line of the model.

Hey just realised, I sort of sound like I know what I am talking about, well sort of!!!:silly:


Cookie 01-23-2008 09:40 PM

I could be wrong so wait until you hear form others on this before proceeding. I generally make sure that the front of the motor is centered in the center of the hole in the front of the cowl. If that works out to where the motor is mounted in the center line of the firewall, fine. If not, I don't consider it a big deal. The main concern is to get some right and down thrust into the position of the motor so that it doesn't want to torque to the left or climb excessively. When I look at my planes from the top and side, I can see the off-set, but it's not too extreme. On "X" type outrunner motor mounts, I usually put two washers between the left tab and the firewall and the top tab and the firewall to get the off-set that I want. The left tab is looking at the plane from the rear, like sitting in a car. Now, wait for others to reply before jumping on that drill.;)

scalercflyer 01-23-2008 09:50 PM

I agree Cookie. I also like to have the motor shaft at center to the hole in the cowl. A bit of down thrust and right thrust is not noticable unless you are really looking for it. On center line or not is no big deal since it won't affect flight characteristics. Like Cookie said if it works out, OK. PS: You fools don't realize that Red on your planes just gives me a target to shoot at! Martin

degreen60 01-23-2008 10:08 PM

I try to mount my motors with the hub of the prop on thrust line of the model.

Your right Martin, the french cockades look like red bullseyes.

Cookie 01-23-2008 10:41 PM

Thanks. I've always done it that way, but I could have been wrong. Didn't want to mislead anyone. Red? I like the lozenge style but it's hard to find covering like that and a lot of masking and painting to color it that way. I'm sure everyone here is aware that the WW1 biplanes were painted in certain colors to identify the squadrons and individual pilots. Of course, they didn't have radios back then. Funny thing is, the RED BARON may have been shot down by ground units and not Brown. I don't know whether they ever settled that question. O.K., I'm done.:Q

Hedlro 01-23-2008 11:00 PM

Some Pictures
3 Attachment(s)
Thanks for the advice, so I assume that I do not need to be accurate to with tenths of inches then!!! I think I was getting a little carried away with being dead on. When you say washers, how thick are the washers?

Anyway, here are some photos of my build so far. I have placed the aluminium cowl in place for efect. Be kind, if there is anything that is obvious to your expert eyes, let me know.


WWI Ace 01-23-2008 11:35 PM

Yeah Hedlro. Just center up the shaft with the cowl opening and you'll be fine. You won't need excessive right and down thrust. About two or three degrees will usually work. I'm glad to hear some new people!! Mmm!! always did like that RED color!!! Steve

Cookie 01-23-2008 11:53 PM

I use various thicknesses of washers, depending on what I have at the time. Some are about the thickness of a business card others are thicker. I just add them on until I get the off-set that I want.

degreen60 01-24-2008 12:14 AM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Cookie (Post 343205)
I like the lozenge style but it's hard to find covering like that and a lot of masking and painting to color it that way. :Q

You don't have to paint the lozenge pattern. You can download it off the net and print it with you printer. Here is my Albatros with printed paper glued on top of the wings. I used bright white paper. On my MS I printed the french cockades on tissue paper. Laid the paper on the plane and sprayed clear over it. The clear soaked through the paper and glued it to the plane.

Martin should like the red tail.

scalercflyer 01-24-2008 12:59 AM

A short history
The Red Baron was shot down from the ground by Aussie machine gunners while chasing a neophyte pilot (Lt Wilfred May) down low behind enemy lines on April the 21st, 1918. Oddly enough this was his number one rule not to break (fly low behind enemy lines) which he violated for some unknown reason. I personally believe he was a victim of combat fatigue. The Red Baron is my favorite subject of research and has been for me since 1967. I have just about every book ever published about the Red Baron (no boast just fact). The best book to explain the mystery is a book named "The Red Baron's Last Flight, a mystery investigated written by Norman Franks". This book is available from AMAZON.com for about $9.00 and is a terrific read. I first became interested in WWI aviation when I was in 3rd year high school. As a matter of fact, I still have the book that started it all. As I have stated before and will do so again, I am at your service should anyone need some research done. Martin


FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 01:06 AM

I think nova did a special on this topic...


Cookie 01-24-2008 03:43 AM

degreen60, good idea. thanks.

scalercflyer, I got a book titled "Richthofen, a true history of the Red Baron" by William E. Burrows. I take it with me whenever I feel I'm going to have to wait for an appointment and I have time to sit and read (like jury duty). Interesting book. It describes the Red Baron's egotistical personality.

Jakeluke 01-24-2008 03:47 PM

Covering material

Since it seems as though you're almost as senior as I, perhaps you can help me with this one. Back in the late 40's, we covered all our gas jobs with silkspan. I remember colored airplanes, but all I can remember is white sillspan. Did we have colored silkspan, or did we have to dope for color?

Jakeluke 01-24-2008 04:11 PM

There's an aircraft museum in British Columbia a few miles from the Buchart Gardens where they would disagree with you. As I remember it, they believe that it was Billy Bishop that shot down the Red Baron and have quite a bit of memorabilia to back it up.

50+AirYears 01-24-2008 04:35 PM

Jakeluke, back in the late 40s and early 50s, about the only colored tissue I recall was a very heavy red. For the rubber powered FF planes and some of the wood models, I mostly remember using Comet dope, and when I graduated to glow power, Aerogloss. I think it wasn't till the mid 50s or so I remember being able to buy colored lightweight silkspan, and then later some even lighter colored tissue that only needed clear dope for sealing.

First account of the controversy over who shot down Richthofen I ever read was in an early 50s Air Trails. It did mention that the Baron apparently did drown in his own blood from a bullet wound to a lung, which let him make a lannding before he actually expired, but apparently the path of the bullet wasn't really researched during the battlefield (autopsy? if you want to call it that). The assumption at the time he was shot down from behind, but the pilot who was originally given credit admitted he opened fire from maximum range, just hopping to distract Richthofen from his attack.

50+AirYears 01-24-2008 04:43 PM

Almost forgot. This last summer, guy showed up at the field with a beautifully done 25% D VII with the proper lozenge patterns on both wings. I think it was a 5 color on the top wing and a 4 color on the bottom. Mentioned how long it took him to paint all those colors with a set of templates. (He also painted in the seam lines based on some fotos he had of the prototype he followed, then added rib tales with simulated stitching underneath)Another somewhat more experienced builder then asked him why he didn't just paint the wings with a coat or two of the lightest color first, reducing the amount of hassle and time. Could have saved 2 or 3 days! Or why didn't he just get the already printed iron-on covering from Arizona Models, in the proper scale, and skip all that work entirely?

FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 04:53 PM

but where's the fun in that?

WWI Ace 01-24-2008 06:20 PM

What color was the Baron's last plane Martin? Steve

Biplane Murphy 01-24-2008 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by WWI Ace (Post 343835)
What color was the Baron's last plane Martin? Steve

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......................Was it RED?

scalercflyer 01-24-2008 06:43 PM

No it wasn't!!! :D It was a crimson color, not bright red like you two knuckleheads think! :p So there! ;) Martin

Biplane Murphy 01-24-2008 06:46 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I seem to remember it might have really been This Color.


scalercflyer 01-24-2008 06:53 PM

The controversy
It's true, even to this day the controversy continues. The fact remains MVR sustained a mortal wound transversing the thoracic cavity which included a hit to both lungs and possibly his heart. If it were true that Brown hit him, he would not have been able to fly another 2 miles further on (from when he allegedly was hit by Brown) and then crash. His reaction was immediate (his plane jerked), leading to his immediate crash following the hit by the .303 ammo. The wound originated at his right side and exited just under the left nipple. There are some accounts of him saying "Kaput" to the soldiers who first got to him before he died. As I stated in an earlier reply, buy and read the book by Norman Franks. It presents all views and opinions not just one. An excellent book. Martin

scalercflyer 01-24-2008 06:56 PM

A visit
I might just pay you a visit in California and give you a sound thrashing Murph! :eek: ;) Pink indeed! What a sacrilege! :mad: Where did you get your reference material? ;) Martin

FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 07:14 PM

Right now, on the history channel international, they are showing a special on the red baron!

FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 07:28 PM

Speaking of the Red Baron...


Jakeluke 01-24-2008 08:04 PM


Thanks for the comments. I could not remember spraying any of my planes with colored dope in those days, nor would I want to envision what they'd have looked like if I'd brushed the color on, so your confirming that we had colored Silkspan is welcome.


50+AirYears 01-24-2008 08:28 PM

Spray? Seems I remember a tip in one of the Air Trails that one could maybe use one of those bulb type perfume atomizers to spray on a very thin coat of dope, either using the squeeze bulb, or just blowing into the tube. Spray guns that were available to me were big and bulky, and needed a fairly large air compressor. I dread imagining what a coat of color dope would look like then, done with an atomizer. Don't think we had spray cans till much later, and seems to me using the atomizer would give a spottier color finish than brushing.

I remember working for days or weeks, brushing thined dope on a silkspanned or silked plane, letting it dry, then sanding with progressively finer papers, finishing with high quality typewriter paper, to get mirror finishes one could almost shave with. Never saw that with any iron-ons. 20 or more coats, then after a week of drying, rubbing it out with a fine paste polish, then finishing with Aero Gloss Carnuba paste wax. Then buffing with a cotton cloth.

FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 08:31 PM

then smashing it into the ground when someone else turned on a radio with your frequency...

WWI Ace 01-24-2008 11:20 PM

I thought Snoopy shot the Red Baron down while flying his trusty yellow Sopwith Camel!!! And I think Murph might be right! The Red Baron's plane might have been pink. I don't know about him getting shot in the "cavity" like Martin said though. He would have had to been smiling for that to happen wouldn't he? Steve

50+AirYears 01-24-2008 11:28 PM

No, flyingmonkey. I was refering to the days of control line and free flight. Totally immune to radio interference. Lot simpler then. And with cl, you could realy feel what your plane was doing.

FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 11:42 PM

I was thoroughly amused to find a book at the library about rc flight........

from 1974!

My girlfriend is taking a class at the local college, and I have hours to kill while I wait for her to get out.

This place has some awesome aviation books from days gone by.

One of the wonderful things about old books about WWI planes, is that the older the book, the more "current" the info.

I was able to take one home that has some amazing images in it that I would never find anywhere else.

The two I have next to me now are...

Fighter Aircraft of the 1914-1918 War by Aero Publishers in 1964



The Fighting Triplanes published by The Macmillian Company in 1968


The other books are stuck in the reference section. One had a listing of every aircraft in production in the world in 1918. Some amazing, if not entirely successful craft in those pages.

FlyingMonkey 01-24-2008 11:43 PM

I am sure they still had the occasional unintended brush with the ground 50+, and after all that work, it must have been a rather emotional moment.

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