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Old 07-20-2011, 09:23 AM   #1
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Question Real silk as covering material

Hello everyone,

I am currently ever so slowly building a Nieuport 17 based on the 5 aircraft initially ordered by the Swiss Air Force as the example. Now normally I use either Silkspan (Esaki) or lightweight shrink covering (Oracover) but in a recent raid on a local craftshoppe I happen to have the luck to find genuine silk. I had heard of people using real silk to cover their models but have never done this myself. Now I am getting closer to the point where covering the model comes into question.

Real silk comes very close in grain to what scale cloth might look like in the size I am building. However I must admit my knowledge about using real silk is near zero. I would think that using the usual nitrate dope would be the way to go as the dope would be the element that would shrink the silk. But I am in no way certain this is the correct way or if this would even work.

I admit using real silk is likely to be a near dead way to cover a model but somehow the look of the stuff when I stretched over the bare frame looked terrific and it seemed very easy to pull what few wrinkles there were out of it. ofcourse now I must permanently attach the stuff and would greatly appreciate your experiences and advice to this admittedly very old school way of doing things.

best regards and thanks, Jens
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:28 AM   #2
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I would check your silk for shrinkage on a small frame. If the silk doesn't shrink after it is applied over an open frame it will be difficult to get the wrinkles out.

When doped, the silk relaxes and some of the newer silks won't shrink enough to look good.
Here's a how to I did a while back on silk.

Working with silk.
Silk is a natural fabric It is woven and will cover around compound curves very well.
I've covered foam planes with silk, and balsa too.
This will be about covering open areas of a balsa structure or a solid sheeted area.

First prepping the wood.
Balsa is cellulose based and it absorbs colored dope/paint like a sponge.
The faster you can seal the pores of the balsa, the less coats of paint you will need.

Dope, both clear Nitrate and butyrate, fills the pores in balsa well and stops the wood from sucking up paint.

The better the finish of the uncovered wood, the better the overall finish will be.
A few coats of clear will seal and then start to fill the grain of balsa.

Some people add talc powder to the dope so it fills the grain a little faster.
Some use a product called sanding sealer to fill the grain rapidly.

I prefer thinned dope. Thinned dope fills pretty fast and doesn't get too thick over the high spots.
Then I dry sand with 180 to 220 grit sandpaper using a block to get all the high spots down.
The goal is to get an even smooth surface, before you cover.

A lot of people use nitrate dope for the first steps.
I feel butyrate works just as well.

But remember nitrate and butyrate are not the same.

Nitrate can't be applied over butyrate
. It will react and ruin your finish.
Nitrate is very flammable compared to butyrate.
Nitrate has a little better adhesive qualities compared to butyrate.
Nitrate requires additional fuel proofing.If your plane is to be glow powered.
Nitrate stops shrinking after a couple of days.
Butyrate shrinks for a long, long time.

Covering.

Since I don't use nitrate anymore, This will be using butyrate. The proceedure for Nitrate is the same.
To increase the adhesiveness of the butyrate I coat the bare structure with butyrate until the wood picks up a shine after the wood has been sanded smooth.

The brush.
I like a 3/4 inch wide camels hair brush. These are available from hobby or craft shops.
Some people have had good luck with the foam brushes. I like the foam brushes for paints other than dope.

Applying silk to an open structure.

Lay a piece of the dry silk over the area to be covered.
Silk has a grain to it. The grain should go spanwise.
If you put the silk on so the grain is chordwise the silk will pull down between the ribs and look odd.
Silk shrinks greater with the grain than across the grain.
The grain is usually the side with the edge finished from the factory.

Wetting the silk with water.
I use a small atomizer to wet the silk.
Keep the silk wet, I mean really wet.
It will stay put just from friction if it's wet.

I use a lot of thinner with just a little dope to stick the silk.
The thinner passes through the silk and softens the dope underneath sticking the silk down.
If you accidentally get some of the thinned dope on the silk, there is not enough dope to curl the silk.
Thick dope will curl the silk as it drys.

Using dope while the silk is still wet will cause the dope to blush. It will actually turn white.
Let all the water dry off the silk before doping too much.

Avoid days with high humidity


If it is a day with high humidity, the dope may blush again. A couple of drops of retarder will stop that.
Sig sells retarder in small bottles.

A couple coats of dope on the silk over the structure helps to bond the silk to the balsa.
Do that before trying to fill the weave of the open areas.

There are many ways to stop dope from dripping through the silk.
I like the thinned dope method, it always works.

When filling the weave of the silk, use cross coats.
One coat chordwise followed by one coat spanwise.
I usually do this to each wing panel before going to the next panel.

Avoiding the drip through.
When doing open wing panels, just use very thin dope and hold the surface vertical.
If you hold a wing horizontal while doping, especially with dope that hasn't been thinned a lot, the dope will drip through and make an ugly ''ring'' on the other side of the wing.
The thinned dope will not leave a ring, and if the panel is vertical the dope will stay on the side you are doping.
The newer silks have a much tighter weave than the old silks. The new silk fills a lot faster.

If you've been using nitrate dope, this is a good spot to switch to butyrate.

On the last couple of coats of clear I add a couple of drops of Castor oil to the clear dope. It will act as a plasticizer and will slow dope from drying out over a long time.

Silk source.
I've found that there are at least two different silks that shrink different from each other.
The silk from Thai silk seems to be pre shrunk
and doesn't shrink much if at all after covering.
This is good for delicate structures. Or over solid sheeted areas.

Non shrinking silk

http://www.thaisilks.com/product_inf...22fba3399425a4

The silk I like from there is the 5mm 021F-000 Habotai.


If you want silk that shrinks more, the silk from Dharma Trading is for you.
It's great for stronger structures or open areas like wings.

Shrinking silk

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/eng/3374-AA.shtml

I use the 5mm. HS536 or the HS545 same but 45 inches wide.

I've found the 5mm silk is lighter than any other covering, including tissue and the weave is so tight that it doesn't take much clear to fill.

Before you ask,mm is not milimeters. ''MM is Momme.
Momme (pronounced ''mommy'' and abbreviated ''mm'') expresses the weight in pounds of a piece of material of size 45 inches by 100 yards. So, for example, a 50 yd. bolt of our 5mm 45'' Habotai Silk fabric (#HS545) would weigh 2.5 lbs. (plus the weight of the cardboard tube it is wrapped around, of course).
The higher the momme, the heavier and stronger the fabric. Anything above 28 momme is considered heavy-weight and generally used for curtains or heavier outer-garments. Silk under 20 momme is considered lightweight, and generally used for light blouses with a chiffon feel. Medium-weight silk (20 to 28 momme) is excellent for silk scarves, furnishings, wedding dresses and the ultimate luxury of silk sheets.'' Dharma Trading.


5 mm silk is extremely light.
A sheet 45 inches wide by 300 feet long would only weigh 5 pounds.

Drying out and rot.

Unless you leave the silk in direct sunlight, the silk won't rot.
What actually happens over time the dope becomes hard and brittle. The silk is saturated with the dope and when the dope cracks, so does the silk.
I just started removing silk that was applied 40 years ago. The silk is fine, the dope isn't.
If you plan on leaving your plane in the sunlight for storage, a couple of coats of silver will stop Ultra Violet damage.


Dope to thinner ratio, I find I use twice as much thinner as dope.

Colored silk
It seems that silk only comes in white lately. Colored silk over an open framework with just clear dope is a nice light finishing technique.

It is easy to dye silk.

Now to the color part.
I've been told ,"you can't dye silk without a special process".
Once way back when, I tried with the little packages of Rit dye.
I made a mess and the silk was all streaky and not colored evenly.

I read the process at Dharma and it basically told of a long and involved procedure to color silk.

My wife said,"try this". She handed me some new Rit liquid dye, and an old pot.
When I finally got up the courage to try it, I was amazed.
I didn't make a mess and the silk took the dye evenly through out.
All I did was follow the instructions on the back of the package.

Basically add the liquid to hot water and let simmer on the stove.
Add the wet silk and stir for thirty minutes.
Rinse with cold water and wash with some detergent, let dry.

The next day wash again with a mild soap or detergent. It seems the excess dye doesn't go away completely with the first wash.

Failure to do the second wash will result in the excess dye transferring to the clear dope by way of the brush and mixing together, and contaminating the clear.

Also when you go to add colored dope over the dyed silk, the color will bleed through to the surface.
Darker colors are harder to cover over.
Red is the worst.


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Old 07-20-2011, 12:51 PM   #3
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Years ago when I was covering planes with "silk" I got some old flare parachutes. I do not know it they are silk but the material they are made from makes great covering material. To dye the covering I used tea. Made the covering a light tan. I always put the covering in water and applied it wet. I been looking for a paint I can buy anywhere that will shrink the covering but haven't found one yet. I tried WBP but it does not shrink.

Now for my last stunt, a forward flip on landing.
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:51 PM   #4
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Hi Jens
Pleased to meet you
Do check out the enclosed PDF
Hope its of help
Take care
Yours Hank

"When wild the head-wind beat,Thy sovereign Will commanding, Bring them who dare to fly, To a safe landing."
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Old 07-20-2011, 06:43 PM   #5
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I cannot thank all of you enough for the valuable information all of you have provided thank you thank you and thank you some more and then some !!! Totally awesome !!! This ought to be a sticky !!!

SO now that I have enough information to get into serious trouble with I am going to see how this works out for me. This is the first time I have ever attempted this so it should be learning experience and then some.

Many many thanks. Jens
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:49 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by degreen60 View Post
Years ago when I was covering planes with "silk" I got some old flare parachutes. I do not know it they are silk but the material they are made from makes great covering material. To dye the covering I used tea. Made the covering a light tan. I always put the covering in water and applied it wet. I been looking for a paint I can buy anywhere that will shrink the covering but haven't found one yet. I tried WBP but it does not shrink.
I have heard of using tea to get the old linen look, but I haven't tried that yet.
Does the color go on evenly? I have been wanting to try that for an old Demoiselle I've been threatening to build.
Always looking to try new things.

Butyrate dope shrinks quite a bit, other than smell and the cost, is there another reason you want something different?

Paul
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:44 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by pd1 View Post
I have heard of using tea to get the old linen look, but I haven't tried that yet.
Does the color go on evenly? I have been wanting to try that for an old Demoiselle I've been threatening to build.
Always looking to try new things.

Butyrate dope shrinks quite a bit, other than smell and the cost, is there another reason you want something different?

Paul
Tea stain was even. Looked good except was little baggy because the WBP did not shreak. I crashed the plane and redid it with iron on covering. After I took it off the plane I found a picture from WWI that the plane looked like the covering was looser than my model. Looking for a sub for dope cause no hobby shops close. I fly electric so don't need to be fuel proof. Here are a couple of pictures showing the tea stained covering installed and painted with WBP. I stained 2 batches. As you can see in the pictures one batch is darker.


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Now for my last stunt, a forward flip on landing.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:47 AM   #8
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Interesting idea to use tea as a coloring ... how long does one leave it in there? Not that I am going to do that one as the version of the Nieuport I am fiddling together is white (or silver???) with white crosses on red backgrounds but the idea is interesting for a Bleriot I have plans for (you just have to love those old planes) . I read that typically in the early days planes were painted silver to help the linen used for covering to last longer. Is there any truth in that?

Jens
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Old 07-21-2011, 01:11 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by jensheydel View Post
Interesting idea to use tea as a coloring ... how long does one leave it in there? Not that I am going to do that one as the version of the Nieuport I am fiddling together is white (or silver???) with white crosses on red backgrounds but the idea is interesting for a Bleriot I have plans for (you just have to love those old planes) . I read that typically in the early days planes were painted silver to help the linen used for covering to last longer. Is there any truth in that?

Jens
I just made strong hot tea and soaked the material in it about 30 min. Remember paints were not as good back then as what we have now. Colors then were very unstable. The old colors faded to different shades even if protected. Most wood things were painted with red lead paint, barn red, box car red. Even in the 1940s most box cars were red. I do remember there being a thick silver paint my dad used to paint a roof. Maybe that was silver used on planes.

Now for my last stunt, a forward flip on landing.
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:00 PM   #10
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The silver used on airplanes was aluminum powder mixed with clear dope.
The silver was for protecting the fabric from the sunlight.
You can still get aluminum powder from Randolph .

I was wrong, now they only sell it in paste form.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo.../alumpaste.php

Back in the first war, I don't think they knew a lot about UV problems.
Silver was only used on some planes, mostly for color or a even base coat.
Colors added over silver were more even and brighter.
WW I planes were not that fine a finish. Or consistent.
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Old 07-22-2011, 03:28 AM   #11
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Used to cover full size planes back in the 50s. As PD1 says, we'd mix aluminum powder with nitrate dope in a 5 gallon paint sprayer. First off, it was done much like a model with silk and dope. A Piper Pacer we did, for instance, the fuse was covered with mercerized cotton, that's where the fuzzy surface was taken off, pulled tight and pinned together along the joint with straight pins. It was like a big sock at this point and sewn together at the pin line. After sewing it was turned inside out then stretched back onto the fuselage. After spraying it with water to shrink tight onto the fuse., you could hear the structural framework squeeking and groaning as the cloth shrunk. Then a clear coat of nitrate dope. After that was the coat after coat of aluminum dope to build up the finish, water sanding between coats. The water paper was folded 3 times meant the paper was exposed on both sides to get a grip on it. This meant you were sanding with your finger tips. After a day of this, you had no fingerprint whirls on your fingers. Good time to take your fingerprintsAfter a good finish was done, then the butyrate colouring was done on it. Came out with a beautiful turquoise finish. BUT about a month later, the customer landed with the brakes on and flipped it over. Wasn't to badly damaged but the batt., mounted behind the seat, leaked the acid out onto the finished and really finished it by eating right through it. Some of the others we had to cover were three Stearman cropdusters that we owned.
A little history lesson and showing my age

Gord.

Gord.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:29 AM   #12
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Wow all that work and then the pilot flips it up on its roof ... no doubt a costly mistake but nonetheless I hope no one got hurt. Interesting to read how thing were done once. In this day and age of high tech materials I enjoy reading how things were done before computers and mobile phones took over the world. Must have been a ton of work to get an entire aircraft covered without wrinkles.

The three folded sandpaper ... used to do that too ... did a bit of time in a body shop. Messy job but after the final polish the old paints gleamed like diamonds.

Jens
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Old 07-22-2011, 11:25 AM   #13
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Yeah, very labour intensive Jens, but a labour of love. I forgot the part where pinking tape was doped on wherever the metal on the fuse. and wings touched the fabric. Plus the rib stitching about every 6 or 8 ins. apart on the ribs where a string tied the fabric to the wings so it wouldn't lift off with the very low pressure on the top of the wings. Homade needles to go through the wings(about 14 in. long) from one side to the other was made from a piece of welding rod hammered flat on one end and a hole drilled for the string. then ground to the shape of a needle. The other end was ground to a point and a slight hook was bent into it like a hawks beak. Sorry to get off topic. I'll can it.

Gord.
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:36 PM   #14
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Gord,

No worries I enjoy reading about these old techniques that were once the daily routine. It always reminds that no matter what us young guys (if 48 is still young) should stop and listen to the older generation ... the things you guys know and lived are like new inventions for us. Using a homemade needle (welding rod wow!!) ... now there is a bit of inventiveness there that needs to be noted and written down. Humbles me to think that I just got my bungee cord suspension to work on my 1/16 (or thereabouts ) to work properly, likely you older guys could do this blindfolded with your thumbs taped to your hands LOL. If there is interest I might post either a build log or just add the link here to allow everyone to see the pics.

Jens
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by flypaper 2 View Post
Some of the others we had to cover were three Stearman cropdusters that we owned.
A little history lesson and showing my age

Gord.
I remember when I was 13 or 14 standing in the yard watching a Stearman dust for Army Worms in the field next to us. The pilot had a man on each end of the field marking where to fly next with a tall pole. When the plane got close the man would drop the pole and run out of the way. The plane was barely higher then the fences. The plane made a wingover a tree in our yard and blew leaves out of it. The farmer told us later the he left and would not watch anymore when he saw the wheel turning when they touched the roof of his barn. The Army Worms were so bad that year the road was slick from cars running over them. Those were the days when a plane flew over everyone would go outdoors and look up to see it. My bigest thrill was seeing a P38 fly over probably just a year or 2 after WW2.

Now for my last stunt, a forward flip on landing.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:14 AM   #16
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Back then they used to use P38s and B17s for Photo mapping in the north here and used to store the planes at the local airport for winter storage. When I was gassing up a plane one time I saw this little dot off in the distance. A few seconds later it seemed, this P38 flashed by about a 100 ft. over the hangar I'm sure at full throttle and the pilot grinning from ear to ear. Must have been close to 400 mph. By spring there was about 40 gallons of glycol spread over the hangar floor and guess who had to clean it up. When they brought the B17 we had to let the air out of the tailwheel and take off one wingtip to get it in the hangar.
Used to use one of the Stearmans to tow a banner over the Ottawa Exhibition. Another fun job was getting it airborn. We hammered two stakes in the ground about 4 ft. high with a notch cut in the top for the loop in the tow rope. It was laid out so the rope was on the banner before the plane got to the banner, so once he picked up the rope with the hook, he'd pull back and climb at about a 45 degree angle and the banner would peel off the ground. Usually took 2 or 3 tries. Sometimes he would hit a stake with the wheel, dropping the rope and missing it. We'd run out, hammer the stake back in and rehang the rope while he did a circuit. Next time he wouldnt pull up soon enough and drag the banner over itself and do a circuit with this big ball of letters being towed behind it. Drop it and we'd reset the banner and finally get it airborn.
As you say, this stuff is lost anymore. Just good memories.

Gord.
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