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Old 05-19-2017, 05:46 PM   #1
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Default FAA registration has been shot down.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngog...?c=0&s=NewTech

The FAA registration is no longer required.

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Old 05-19-2017, 06:13 PM   #2
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Wonder if we can get a refund of our refund back?

Take care and thanks for posting at WattFlyer!!

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Old 05-19-2017, 07:03 PM   #3
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Not sure if he follows this site but all US flyers should give a well deserved thank you to Mr. Taylor.....WTG John
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:21 PM   #4
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This is good news! About time someone looked at this from the correct perspective. And yes, many thanks to the legal team that made this happen.

Pat Gagnon
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:40 PM   #5
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Where was AMA on this issue? As I remember, Mr Taylor did this on his own dime, while AMA just went along with the ruling....could be wrong, but didn't see them in the fight!!
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Old 05-19-2017, 09:00 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Don Sims View Post
Wonder if we can get a refund of our refund back?
Tea, probably after a $50.00 processing fee.

Other than taxes I haven't heard of the government giving refunds, but I could be wrong.

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Old 05-20-2017, 04:56 AM   #7
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Well it's not completely shut down until the appeal process has been completed. Congress could also approve language that the FAA may include in the coming session of it's re-authorization program hearings.......curious why this statement was made.....:

"Drone registration is a good policy because it promotes accountability and provides an opportunity for the FAA to educate pilots on the guidelines for safe operation," Brendan Schulman, the vice president of policy and legal affairs at DJI, told CNNTech. DJI is the world's largest drone manufacturer.

Not real worried about the hobby aspect....I never considered registration due to the number of pending law suits that still remain to be settled....
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Brner View Post
Where was AMA on this issue? As I remember, Mr Taylor did this on his own dime, while AMA just went along with the ruling....could be wrong, but didn't see them in the fight!!
Im glad I donated to his cause worth every penny. As far as the AMA is concerned they were to busy getting into bed with the FAA. They sent an email trying to take some credit for today's ruling and how they were working tirelessly to advise the FAA. When the FAA was laughing at the AMA Wyo. Outdoors and I were talking and he put it well when he said that it seemed like the AMA was hoping that every one might have to register with them and they could charge what they wanted for it. The AMA were a Joke in this matter.

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Old 05-20-2017, 09:47 AM   #9
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Screw the ama. They didn't do squat to over turn the FAA. All they cared about was making it mandatory to have a ama membership in order to be able to register for a FAA number.They're going to try and take the credit for this outcome but we must never forget that it took one of our own to beat the FAA.

ama is next.
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Old 05-20-2017, 01:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by FoxProGT View Post
Screw the ama. They didn't do squat to over turn the FAA. All they cared about was making it mandatory to have a ama membership in order to be able to register for a FAA number.They're going to try and take the credit for this outcome but we must never forget that it took one of our own to beat the FAA.

ama is next.
What do you mean? Eliminate the AMA?

The AMA was in a precarious position on this issue. Yes, they could have sued the FAA, but that isn't really the best way to attempt to maintain a cordial relationship with an agency that could, theoretically, change the rules that would effectively shut down your hobby.

Did they do enough? No, I don't think they did, but at the time, 'drone' issues were in the news, and the people in Washington wanted something done. Personally, I think a $5 registration fee and sticking a number on your model isn't that bad, considering some of the alternatives that were considered.

That being said, the AMA provides insurance vital to obtaining permission for many clubs to lease or use private land as a flying field. In this era of "sue everyone", landowners who would otherwise be willing to allow RC flight on their property have become so concerned about the possibility of being sued should something happen, they won't even talk to you. That may be a non-issue in Wyoming, but in more densely populated areas it is.

If the AMA goes away, I fear the FAA will become the new governing body of the hobby. And by 'governing', I don't mean necessarily for the better.

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Old 05-20-2017, 07:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post
.....an agency that could, theoretically, change the rules that would effectively shut down your hobby........
Hate to turn this into a debate but the FAA can only pass 'rules' that comply with 'laws' that Congress passes. That's exactly why the FAA lost at this point of the litigation. The 'rule' violated 'law'. This happens often with administrative 'rules' from many agencies at all levels of government but doesn't get challenged because those 'rules' don't affect the right people or do not affect enough people all at once.

The FAA can certainly ask Congress to pass laws that agree with what they want.....We can also ask of Congress the same. It's up to us to be vigilant if laws are contemplated that are adverse to our hobby, and to contact our representatives as to our thoughts on those laws.

AMA in the past has done many things for the benefit of our hobby but, in the case, IMHO, they let us down. Mr. Taylor took the ball and ran with it, for us!!

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Old 05-20-2017, 08:11 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brner View Post
The FAA can certainly ask Congress to pass laws that agree with what they want.....We can also ask of Congress the same.
Somehow, I think that if the FAA were to approach Congress asking for a law about a matter of air safety, and Congress were to receive letters from the same group of people (modelers) that were CAUSING the issue to begin with, we'd come out on the short end of the antenna.

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Old 05-20-2017, 08:50 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post
Somehow, I think that if the FAA were to approach Congress asking for a law about a matter of air safety, and Congress were to receive letters from the same group of people (modelers) that were CAUSING the issue to begin with, we'd come out on the short end of the antenna.

As we should, if the scenario that you posted were true and the FAA can support their case.

If there are flaws in the FAA's approach, all the more reason for us (modelers) to remain vigil and make sure we are heard individually and that the AMA 'actively' represents our best interests in the matter.

Don
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post

That being said, the AMA provides insurance vital to obtaining permission for many clubs to lease or use private land as a flying field. In this era of "sue everyone", landowners who would otherwise be willing to allow RC flight on their property have become so concerned about the possibility of being sued should something happen, they won't even talk to you. That may be a non-issue in Wyoming, but in more densely populated areas it is.

If the AMA goes away, I fear the FAA will become the new governing body of the hobby. And by 'governing', I don't mean necessarily for the better.

And that's the problem with the ama "the AMA provides insurance vital to obtaining permission" I know its up to the club/land owner to require a ama membership to fly on there land but if the ama wasn't around, it wouldn't be a requirement and maybe club fields would get more members but it could also be a way of filtering out the wriff wraff.

I know i wouldn't mind paying a club membership fee to fly but im not about to give my money to the ama to have permission to do it. And lets not talk about how the ama didn't sue because they thought it wasn't the right way to go about it. All the ama cared about was making it mandatory to have ama in order to get faa registration.
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Old 05-21-2017, 01:14 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Brner View Post
and that the AMA 'actively' represents our best interests in the matter.

Don

I know you meant well with this statement but we shouldn't expect or want the ama to represent rc modelers. This FAA situation proves the ama wouldn't do anything for us.
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:23 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by FoxProGT View Post
I know you meant well with this statement but we shouldn't expect or want the ama to represent rc modelers. This FAA situation proves the ama wouldn't do anything for us.
That only proves that many think the AMA, in this case, did not aggressively pursue action against the FAA 'rule'. And, believe me, I am in that crowd! But, as I said above, they have done many good things for modeling over the years.

That being said, the AMA is the only National Organization representing modelers, at this time that I am aware of. And, we do need a National Organization to represent us, aggressively! There have been a few groups over the years start up and try to take the banner away from AMA but, to my knowledge, none have succeeded. If you are aware of an alternative, please let me know....
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:54 AM   #17
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All this bad feelings about the AMA surprises me.
I have been a modeler since 1960, back then RC was a joke. All the guys had was single channel planes most around 48" just to haul the equipment.
The other planes the were flown without control-lines were free-flight, from .049 (like mine) to .40 size.

I have seen a couple of free-flights and 1 RC ? sticking out of cars windshields and the roof. The AMA paid for those repairs, and it was a lot cheaper than the $75 it costs today, but then everything is a lot more expensive today. Want to buy someone a new windshield? How about car body panels? What would happen if a plane seriously hurt a non modeler?

Today's planes are FAR better than those days but bad things can happen, because we tend to do things much closer to people than in the past, 3D Harrier Rolls going by at less than 50 feet from people lying on the ground, are impressive but if something snaps. the plane is maybe 1 second from hitting someone.

Maybe many of you have not had an accident, but if you do, you may wish you had the AMA standing behind you.

I think most states require you to carry car insurance. I have damaged far fewer cars than airplanes. The insurance offered by AMA seems to be a cheap way to protect myself if I do something terrible.

Sorry I had to vent.

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Old 05-21-2017, 05:56 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brner View Post
That only proves that many think the AMA, in this case, did not aggressively pursue action against the FAA 'rule'. And, believe me, I am in that crowd! But, as I said above, they have done many good things for modeling over the years.

That being said, the AMA is the only National Organization representing modelers, at this time that I am aware of. And, we do need a National Organization to represent us, aggressively! There have been a few groups over the years start up and try to take the banner away from AMA but, to my knowledge, none have succeeded. If you are aware of an alternative, please let me know....
Well even if they did aggressively pursue action against the FAA, they failed us. I don't disagree that we could use a organization to represent the hobby. I just don't want that organization telling me i have to pay them to join a club. That i have to pay to attend a rc flying event. That i have to pay to have the right to fly my planes. That's not my idea of a organization that supports us. Yeah i get it, its insurance but it should at least be an option not a requirement and the ama wants it to be a requirment.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:04 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
All this bad feelings about the AMA surprises me.
I have been a modeler since 1960, back then RC was a joke. All the guys had was single channel planes most around 48" just to haul the equipment.
The other planes the were flown without control-lines were free-flight, from .049 (like mine) to .40 size.

I have seen a couple of free-flights and 1 RC ? sticking out of cars windshields and the roof. The AMA paid for those repairs, and it was a lot cheaper than the $75 it costs today, but then everything is a lot more expensive today. Want to buy someone a new windshield? How about car body panels? What would happen if a plane seriously hurt a non modeler?

Today's planes are FAR better than those days but bad things can happen, because we tend to do things much closer to people than in the past, 3D Harrier Rolls going by at less than 50 feet from people lying on the ground, are impressive but if something snaps. the plane is maybe 1 second from hitting someone.

Maybe many of you have not had an accident, but if you do, you may wish you had the AMA standing behind you.

I think most states require you to carry car insurance. I have damaged far fewer cars than airplanes. The insurance offered by AMA seems to be a cheap way to protect myself if I do something terrible.

Sorry I had to vent.
No need to be sorry man. Id like to read more cases about the ama actually supporting there clients but all i read in there terms are ways they can back out of supporting a modelers claims.

And about the car insurance... well yeah its mandatory to have car insurance. In fact you can't renew your tags with out insurance. Its the kind of setup the ama wants.
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by FoxProGT View Post
And that's the problem with the ama "the AMA provides insurance vital to obtaining permission" I know its up to the club/land owner to require a ama membership to fly on there land but if the ama wasn't around, it wouldn't be a requirement and maybe club fields would get more members but it could also be a way of filtering out the wriff wraff.

I know i wouldn't mind paying a club membership fee to fly but im not about to give my money to the ama to have permission to do it. And lets not talk about how the ama didn't sue because they thought it wasn't the right way to go about it. All the ama cared about was making it mandatory to have ama in order to get faa registration.
If the AMA weren't around, I doubt there would be many clubs to pay your membership to so you could fly, unless you found a fellow modeler with a large plot of land, willing to take on the liability of a potential lawsuit should property be damaged or someone is injured.

The AMA's argument to the FAA was that FAA registration was unnecessary, since AMA members, by and large, weren't the ones causing the issues with drones. Unfortunately, the percentage of modelers who are NOT members of AMA is far greater than those who are, and the FAA knew that. Did the AMA see an opportunity to increase it's membership? Absolutely. It wasn't the correct answer to the problem, and it turned a lot of people, like you, off on the AMA. It also alienated a lot of current members.

However, I feel as though it could be a good thing in the long run, since the 'riff raff' would continue to fly irresponsibly, even with AMA membership, and the resulting safety record could jeopardize the ability to obtain the insurance so vital to the clubs.

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Old 05-21-2017, 02:13 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post
If the AMA weren't around, I doubt there would be many clubs to pay your membership to so you could fly, unless you found a fellow modeler with a large plot of land, willing to take on the liability of a potential lawsuit should property be damaged or someone is injured.

The AMA's argument to the FAA was that FAA registration was unnecessary, since AMA members, by and large, weren't the ones causing the issues with drones. Unfortunately, the percentage of modelers who are NOT members of AMA is far greater than those who are, and the FAA knew that. Did the AMA see an opportunity to increase it's membership? Absolutely. It wasn't the correct answer to the problem, and it turned a lot of people, like you, off on the AMA. It also alienated a lot of current members.

However, I feel as though it could be a good thing in the long run, since the 'riff raff' would continue to fly irresponsibly, even with AMA membership, and the resulting safety record could jeopardize the ability to obtain the insurance so vital to the clubs.
Well said. AMA is a good thing and I dont mean to put them down. Its my opinion that in this case the AMA was strictly looking for a reason to exist so in a desperate move for self preservation they got into bed with the FAA and are still pushing for a form of registration, they say it in their video, they just wish to be the method for registration. I dont like that. We do need the AMA and as already pointed out without them clubs would not exist and flying areas would be few and far between.

Flying is not a right nor is it a privilege, its a responsibility and part of that responsibility is to keep an eye on those in govt who wish to regulate a hobby. The AMA has shown it is not going to do that.

Happy flying may your crashes be limited and if they are not limited let them be cool.
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Old 05-21-2017, 04:01 PM   #22
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Mr. Taylor : Many Thanks for all of your hard work . We AMA members owe you our gratitude. All The Best to You !!! fdnyjery
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Wildflyer View Post
......I have been a modeler since 1960, back then RC was a joke. All the guys had was single channel planes most around 48" just to haul the equipment.
The other planes the were flown without control-lines were free-flight, from .049 (like mine) to .40 size........
Well, I have you beat by a couple of years or more. But, that sounds like the 48" Mambo with the K&B15 in it's snot that I flew in Juneau back in the mid-50's. I say 'flew' reluctantly, because all we did back then was interrupt the flight path of a very stable model when/if the radio would connect.....

BTW, venting is good for the soul.....

Don
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Old 05-22-2017, 07:53 PM   #24
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Congress do something, my side is hurting from laughing. All they have done lately is try and get rid of the best President we have had in decades and letting freaks use what ever bathroom they want.

AMA 1124147
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Stay Quiet View Post
What do you mean? Eliminate the AMA?

The AMA was in a precarious position on this issue. Yes, they could have sued the FAA, but that isn't really the best way to attempt to maintain a cordial relationship with an agency that could, theoretically, change the rules that would effectively shut down your hobby.

Did they do enough? No, I don't think they did, but at the time, 'drone' issues were in the news, and the people in Washington wanted something done. Personally, I think a $5 registration fee and sticking a number on your model isn't that bad, considering some of the alternatives that were considered.

That being said, the AMA provides insurance vital to obtaining permission for many clubs to lease or use private land as a flying field. In this era of "sue everyone", landowners who would otherwise be willing to allow RC flight on their property have become so concerned about the possibility of being sued should something happen, they won't even talk to you. That may be a non-issue in Wyoming, but in more densely populated areas it is.

If the AMA goes away, I fear the FAA will become the new governing body of the hobby. And by 'governing', I don't mean necessarily for the better.
Wow! Such a plethora of errors here. Let's take them in reverse order.
If the AMA goes away, I fear the FAA will become the new governing body of the hobby. And by 'governing', I don't mean necessarily for the better.
The AMA is not a governing body, therefore the FAA cannot become the new governing body. The AMA is a hobby club that doesn't even bother to defend the hobby. It only defends its turf, while extracting protection money first from RC clubs, then double-dipping, requiring protection money from every single person allowed to fly at those clubs. Because of our lack of perspective, we tolerate this blatant abuse.

That being said, the AMA provides insurance vital to obtaining permission for many clubs
A terrible error. Every motorcycle club, car club, gardening club, astronomy club, HAM radio club, service club, ad nauseum, in the country has insurance for a reasonable cost covering not only its members, but members of the public who participate in their events. The participants are not required to join any protection racket or the sponsoring club. At my astronomy club's events a dozen or so of us fly RC planes and are fully covered! Only our lack of perspective and gullibility listening to AMA's fabrications leads us to believe they are doing us a service here.

Houses of prostitution and individual prostitutes pay protection money to the Mafia, who also rub out prostitutes who do not choose to participate. AMA does the same thing and we thank them? Not me. We deserve much better. The early founders of AMA are rolling in their graves.
Did they do enough? No, I don't think they did, but at the time, 'drone' issues were in the news, and the people in Washington wanted something done.
They stood with their thumbs in their mouths as everything we fly was definded as a "drone." My Slow Stick is now a "drone." AMA didn't even react.

AMA did nothing to defend the hobby. They were strictly concerned with singing kumbaya with the FAA and trying to protect AMA turf, trying to substitute AMA membership numbers for FAA numbers.

In two years not a shred of evidence has emerged that the AMA had anything to do with the establishment of rule 336. Of course they thumped their chest, just as they did after their kumbaya meetings with FAA, trumpeting "WE SAVED THE HOBBY!" (their exact words), as they used their "triumph" to raise dues for money for Taj-Muncie and memorial mausoleum buildings named for AMA high officials. The FAA promptly thrust a knife in the back of the silly AMA pretenders who thought they were operating from some position of respect and power. Tiny amounts of money were allocated to local clubs to promote the hobby. In fact, more AMA money is spent flying AMA muckey-mucks across the country to Muncie meetings each year than is allocated to clubs to promote the hobby.

We deserve better. The AMA is beyond saving. It needs to die, sooner rather than later.
The AMA was in a precarious position on this issue. Yes, they could have sued the FAA, but that isn't really the best way to attempt to maintain a cordial relationship with an agency that could, theoretically, change the rules that would effectively shut down your hobby.
No, the AMA IS in a precarious position. Having established their moral blindness, operating at the grave expense of the hobby they pretend to defend, it is crystal clear that the AMA has no reason for being. They are blind to the right thing to do. They are unwilling to do it even if it is lighted by a spotlight. The only thing the AMA is about is extorting money from hobby clubs and their members, while blocking out outsiders from flying RC models. A REAL insurance policy doesn't require protection money in order to fly. A REAL insurance policy isn't so full of exclusions that any conceivable incident can be denied on the basis of dozens of obscure weasel clauses. A REAL umbrella hobby club actually protects the hobby and seeks to induce outsiders to join in our activities. The AMA is a parasite and we need a dewormer for our hobby. AMA is an active enemy to the RC Hobby.

Registered drone offender FA377YHFNC
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